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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14098
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 Posted: Wed, 7th Oct 2020 21:15 Post subject: |
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Can we accept that there are both people who play casually and people who like a good tactical challenge ?
Fucking egos.
It shouldn't be too difficult.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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Nodrim
Posts: 9329
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Oct 2020 21:23 Post subject: |
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| couleur wrote: | Can we accept that there are both people who play casually and people who like a good tactical challenge ?
Fucking egos.
It shouldn't be too difficult. |
Are you saying both groups can co-exist?
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Oct 2020 21:24 Post subject: |
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I must say that i like both to be mix, I don`t like new stream lined games, but to be fair each time i try to replay BG i have issue knowing what spell do what, even if i like challenge its the mix that tie me up, and sure the story...
I never got myself to start Throne of bhaal as i forgot most
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Oct 2020 21:35 Post subject: |
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| Mister_s wrote: | | couleur wrote: | Can we accept that there are both people who play casually and people who like a good tactical challenge ?
Fucking egos.
It shouldn't be too difficult. |
Are you saying both groups can co-exist? |
Yes, thats what I'm saying. RPGs can be easily made more casual in just tweaking some values. On the other hand, micromanaging your builds is part of the gameplay so casual people will just lose that part. Its their loss, really.
| reb0rn wrote: | I must say that i like both to be mix, I don`t like new stream lined games, but to be fair each time i try to replay BG i have issue knowing what spell do what, even if i like challenge its the mix that tie me up, and sure the story...
I never got myself to start Throne of bhaal as i forgot most |
Your chars are mostly OP in TOB anyway, but somehow thats pretty fun too.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Oct 2020 23:59 Post subject: |
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This review from Steam deserves a quote:
| Quote: | Full disclosure, I worked on the original Baldur's Gate series as a designer with a focus on scripting. I also was hands on with a bunch of areas (putting quests into play, setting up 'cinematics', creating items and monsters and so on). I'm honestly not sure how to approach reviewing Baldur's Gate 3 in early access. I've worked on many games over the years and been in many early access and beta tests. So I'll do my best to approach it with this mindset, but I feel like I've been in enough early access or betas to realize how some things probably won't change too much from how they are now. But as someone who worked on the originals, I felt the need to comment I suppose.
Who Am I: A scriptor and designer that worked on Baldur's Gate: Tales of the Sword Coast through Baldur's Gate: Throne of Bhaal, also spending some time with Neverwinter Nights.
(Designer Mindset): I'm going to list my opinion from a designer standpoint instead of a gamer afterwards essentially. If you announce something as Baldur's Gate 3, I have certain expectations, I'm sorry. Otherwise, Baldur's Gate: Illithid Invasions or Whatever Name would have been preferred, or even their own Forgotten Realms IP. But the choice to include 3 means something to me so I'll be treating it as such.
Initial Impressions: It feels like an updated new Divinity Game, but using the ruleset of D&D 5E. It's not a BAD thing, but it doesn't feel very 'Baldur's Gate' like to me. Pathfinder: Kingmaker and Pillars of Eternity feel more similar to what I'd expect from gameplay, or at least more of a mix somewhere in between would have been welcome.
(Designer Mindset): I feel like some of the big keys to Baldur's Gate were unspoken but always there, including trying to include a great story, memorable characters and quests, many choices in how you portray your character and approach things, and a mix of real-time D&D combat. So far the lack of a real-time combat component personally has me thrown off the most from feeling like this is supposed to be a sequel of any kind.
Character Creation: Early access allows 6 classes so far, out of potentially 12? With the lower levels of D&D it feels like many skills aren't available yet, and most of the lower level skills are a bit more simple. So it has me wondering if the hold up on including more classes is on purpose, or is something else going on? I love the options from backgrounds to classes and races, as it's clear at the end of it all they're trying to include as much as they can. Face and Hair options currently have me wanting more though. Faces feel very similar to each other with some of the races, and the hair options while quite a few, I found it difficult to find one I liked. Almost as if there was TOO much flair and curls added, when all I wanted to find was a simple hair cut.
(Designer Mindset): As a designer, I remember making many battles focusing on different classes and subclasses within the enemy encounters when I was able. We'd use their abilities to script fights and let the rolls and tactics figure it out for the most part. So I feel like if only 6 classes are included so far, then the same is said of all npc's and encounters in the game. Which in turn, then has me wondering how this will change along the way, if at all? Not saying it won't, but it feels strange to me personally that more focus wasn't put in completing more classes to some degree first.
Gameplay: It feels like Divinity, but switching in D&D 5E Stats, Abilities, Skills and monsters and so on. Again, it's not a BAD thing at all, and it's enjoyable, but it feels like I'm playing a new Divinity Game set in Forgotten Realms more than anything.
(Designer Mindset): This one is still difficult for me as I feel more like I'm playing a new Divinity game more than anything.
Which again I DO enjoy, but it's not what I'd expected from a game labeled as a sequel. It feels too different, and while I expect changes over the MANY years and editions of D&D since then, it doesn't feel quite right regardless.
Companions: So far there are 5 companions available, most likely one of which you will NEVER use, as party size is limited and you won't want to double up with your own protagonist's choice in class. I haven't played far enough to be fair, but initial impressions are there is a lot of anger and bossy people in this world, and not enough fun and adventure seeker's.
(Designer Mindset): Pathfinder: Kingmaker I feel did this wonderfully, as you had someone cheerful available near the start, along with someone barbaric, some morally questionable choices, some valorous choices and so on. So far it feels as though everyone is out for themselves, and it's a bit hard to like them a whole lot as a result.
I know this CAN change, but going off what I feel so far is that they aren't memorable due to their personalities, but to something afflicting them if anything or a personal goal. That is more memorable than any type of personality so far. I don't know that this number of companions will change a whole lot either, which is unfortunate as I feel like a big part of what made things memorable for BG before was the choices between many companions and party make ups.
Why Baldur's Gate(?): I feel like this is the big question so far, and while I'm sure they want to maintain some mystery, but I guess I don't understand the choice yet. The game play while enjoyable feels too different from what I'd expect given the BG3 title. The change in party size, the way the turn based combat works, it feels too different. I'm enjoying myself, but it does leave me questioning why go the route of a sequel title then?
Larian has already made some amazing popular games, and if they wanted to go down their own Forgotten Realms story I think it's great, and I look forward to it. But why not a new title? The old designer in me is frustrated that it's named as a sequel, without any real continuation showing so far. Whether it's in story, gameplay, characters or anything. It might be there at some point, I don't know, but at this time, I haven't seen it.
When we went from Baldur's Gate to Baldur's Gate 2, there was an emphasis on growing and expanding on what we could to give the player more choices and freedom. Adding subclasses, focusing on player choices in quests and the story, their companions and so on. There's not near enough choice in companions so far for me to be able to tell them to go to hell if I don't like them.
Verdict: From a game standpoint or a Baldur's Gate sequel stand point? While the story is interesting to me and I'm excited to see where it goes, it doesn't feel like it needed to be listed as a sequel. I feel I'd have enjoyed it more as a surprise down the road if it was tied in without announcing it as a sequel and putting certain expectations in place. The game play is great given Divinity's history, and while I expected the similarities, I think I was also expecting more changes rather than mostly the Stats and Naming conventions it feels like.
There are some bugs, and the game does need polish but its still very playable and enjoyable in Early Access. If you want a full feature and enjoyable game, and you're unable to look past the fact that its Early Access, I'd say try to wait though. I know when its finished it will be an enjoyable and well received game. Even in early access I feel I can recommend it. However, I struggle to feel as though it's any type of sequel to Baldur's Gate so far other than in name and knowing the city itself will make an appearance down the road. One day it might, but not today.... |
Source: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197971038456/recommended/1086940/
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 00:23 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Interinactive on Mon, 4th Oct 2021 08:46; edited 3 times in total
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 00:42 Post subject: |
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Steam review is spot on.
This is DOS3 not BG3.
My main issue once again, lack of focus. For me DOS2 was the map with the bazillion items to interact with in a bazillion ways. This is not as bad, but the strengths of BG games (longer conversations, world building, prose, deep DnD) are all gone. What we have is a map with stuff not places.
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14098
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 00:57 Post subject: |
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Ah well. My interest just went to the level of “putting it on the backlog”. Its a shame but I kind of expected it in the end.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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briangw
Posts: 1750
Location: Warren, MN
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 04:59 Post subject: |
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Can this GOG copy update? I remember years ago they could but haven't played a GOG version in a loooong time so don't know if they made any changes to prevent these releases from doing so.
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 05:35 Post subject: |
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| couleur wrote: | | Ah well. My interest just went to the level of “putting it on the backlog”. Its a shame but I kind of expected it in the end. |
If you want something like Baldurs gate and havn't played them, Pathfinder is probably the best followed by Obsidians games Tyranny, Pillars 1 & 2 (I think Obsidian are better at balancing their games but i struggle with their writing).
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 07:21 Post subject: |
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>cant start a game that has dedicated singplayer campaign without internet connection
Wew lad they are super-greedy for that collecetd private user-data.
Into the trash it goes
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Sin317
Banned
Posts: 24322
Location: Geneva
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 08:14 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 09:24 Post subject: |
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I played D&D a couple of times in my young years. Wouldn't turn based combat be more faithful to D&D? I'm not saying turn based or RT is better, I actually don't care which path is taken if it's done well, I was just wondering.
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prudislav
VIP Member
Posts: 29148
Location: The land of beer and porn
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 09:26 Post subject: |
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| Mister_s wrote: | | Wouldn't turn based combat be more faithful to D&D? |
definitly would be , especially with 5e which has bunch of stuffs that would be hard to do RT |
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couleur
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 09:41 Post subject: |
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@AmpegV4 Thanks, I know them already. Like you I had issues with Pillars 1 and my OCD wouldn't let me play Pillars 2 without finishing 1. I'm going to play P:K when I finish my BG1->BG2 playthrough. I got stuck in SoD also because of the writing. It just felt out of place. And then came Death stranding etc. etc. you know how it is.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 12:13 Post subject: |
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| Mister_s wrote: | | I played D&D a couple of times in my young years. Wouldn't turn based combat be more faithful to D&D? I'm not saying turn based or RT is better, I actually don't care which path is taken if it's done well, I was just wondering. |
Turn based is good as well as RT. I prefer RT because you can clear trash mobs fast, and the power fantasy is real. In the beginning, (on harder difficulties) even Kobolds can make you sweat. You need to pause, give commands, place some spells carefully. Then 10 hours later you go through them like a freight-train: no pause, no spells, and your guys don't even get hit. RT design imho is superior and never gets boring - BUT it can become hard to read and frustrating for newcomers.
Turn based is more fun the deeper the game mechanics are, and here it's simply not deep enough.
Plus combat here is gimmicky. Too much verticality, too much pushing and jumping. While novel at first, because of this formation for example plays absolutely no role here, and positioning isn't as vital. This is an encounter design issue and not a RT/TB question. It's just gimmicky.
And finally games like Kingmaker have a strong sense of place on each map. Here, there is no such thing.
It is a very different game design.
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 12:14 Post subject: |
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| couleur wrote: | | @AmpegV4 Thanks, I know them already. Like you I had issues with Pillars 1 and my OCD wouldn't let me play Pillars 2 without finishing 1. I'm going to play P:K when I finish my BG1->BG2 playthrough. I got stuck in SoD also because of the writing. It just felt out of place. And then came Death stranding etc. etc. you know how it is. |
Pillars 2 is ... sadly boring. Too safe. There is a reason Pathfinder Kingmaker beat it in sales, recognition and fanbase. Because Kingmaker has a soul. Pillars 2 is woke shit in pirate theme with ultrabalanced classes. Just not fun.
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 12:19 Post subject: |
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Havent played the second much, but i never noticed anything woke. Does it become apparent later in the game?
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 12:22 Post subject: |
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Well it's early access right.
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Nodrim
Posts: 9329
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 12:30 Post subject: |
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| Stormwolf wrote: | | Havent played the second much, but i never noticed anything woke. Does it become apparent later in the game? |
It's not really woke.
| Radicalus wrote: | | There is a reason Pathfinder Kingmaker beat it in sales, recognition and fanbase. Because Kingmaker has a soul. |
There are many reasons and I doubt boring is one of them. For starters, many players didn't like the setting or linearity of Pillars 1 so they they skipped the sequel. Another reason would be that the theme doesn't really click with people. There is a reason you don't see many pirate games, movies or tv shows.
Pathfinder on the other hand is based on a beloved pnp RPG and follows its predefined story. The gameplay also takes advantage of an enhanced version of DND 3.5 which makes for a vastly superior character creation/customization/progression. After all, this was by far the best (complex) DnD edition and the target audience for cRPG are players who love this ruleset. It's fair to say both games have plenty of pros and cons.
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 17:36 Post subject: |
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Does the writing get any better later on ? Cause the little I've watched of this, it seems to be fanfic levels of bad.
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 18:32 Post subject: |
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| Civ01 wrote: | | they are super-greedy for that collecetd private user-data |
They greedy not only for your data, but also for your money: the cheapest price for the game I could find is 50€, when even Cyberpunk 2077 can be preordered with 34.95€.
IMO Larian is somehow changed, they might have discovered the taste of sweet, easy money. Streamlining (making accessible via generic dialogues) the narrative and script for the game is a good sign of what target they aim: the average Joe aka the masses. We can't burden sin371's mind with complex analysis of the world or weird philosophies and syllogisms, now, can't we?!
Even Geralt taking a shit would say things more interesting, unique or original than what I've read and heard so far in this game.
Discalimer:
Despite the malcontent, I remain lawful neutral and consider, objectively, that up until the launch day Larian still deserves a chance.
 Spoiler: | That doesn't mean I can't point out - as often as I can - how they butchered my beloved Baldur's Gate. |
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 18:44 Post subject: |
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rofl, grow up, 50 eur for such a game is nothing
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 18:46 Post subject: |
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Many people are programmed to only accept those prices for crappy AAA games from EA, UBI, Activision etc
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Sin317
Banned
Posts: 24322
Location: Geneva
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 18:47 Post subject: |
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@blackeyedpubes You really think, it's a question of intelligence, lol?
I don't mind having to calculate etc. in games like Factorio or in other games, with resources, management, simulations and so on.
I like that in those games.
But I don't like to do stats calculations in a rpg, sue me, lol.
All I want from an RPG, is some general choices, like class, race, origins and even spells and skills, but honestly, I don't give a rats ass about stats.
IMHO it actually adds to the charm of a game,IMHO, when you are NOT a cookie-cutter build, but a character that grows "naturally" into something, but not just pushing a stat to max.
And how dare Larian, a company who was on the brink of bankruptcy, make games that "appeal to the masses".
Ever thought about, that you are a minority and people are being sick of catering to guys like you?
And as many have mentioned, there are several games out there, that seem to appeal to your taste, so why the fuck do you care about this one not doing so? Does every game have to cater to YOUR special needs?
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 18:51 Post subject: |
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| Sin317 wrote: | @blackeyedpubes You really think, it's a question of intelligence, lol?
I don't mind having to calculate etc. in games like Factorio or in other games, with resources, management, simulations and so on.
I like that in those games.
But I don't like to do stats calculations in a rpg, sue me, lol.
All I want from an RPG, is some general choices, like class, race, origins and even spells and skills, but honestly, I don't give a rats ass about stats.
IMHO it actually adds to the charm of a game,IMHO, when you are NOT a cookie-cutter build, but a character that grows "naturally" into something, but not just pushing a stat to max.
And how dare Larian, a company who was on the brink of bankruptcy, make games that "appeal to the masses".
Ever thought about, that you are a minority and people are being sick of catering to guys like you?
And as many have mentioned, there are several games out there, that seem to appeal to your taste, so why the fuck do you care about this one not doing so? Does every game have to cater to YOUR special needs? |
This is my pure and honest opinion. If this type of game doesn't appeal to you then naturally gtfo and play games that does appeal to you. Asking for a series to change to appeal more to you is pretty damn selfish. Knowing you, you'd say the very same thing if it was a series you enjoyed and you know it.
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 19:15 Post subject: |
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| PickupArtist wrote: | | rofl, grow up, 50 eur for such a game is nothing |
No game is worth that, none not even Cyberpunk. It's people like you letting them get away with charging so much. I fully intend to buy this, but they can fuck off at that ridiculous price
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 19:21 Post subject: |
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@PickupArtist
When a transaction is made, it means that 'both' parties have accepted the terms.
Now, the child in me, nasty little bugger, wants to negotiate that price because he is NOT OK with the transaction's value; all this while also being very ready to say NO to the transaction if it doesn't suit the personal objectives. I guess that's what a true negotiation means, innit?
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@Sin371
Baldur's Gate series ARE some of my fav. games of all times and, indeed, ARE THE GAMES THAT APPEAL TO MY TASTES. I am not even asking them to CHANGE anything! (pseudo-quoting Stormwolf)
Now, take this CAPS statement of mine and confront it with the delusional selfish judgement you just made.
If you still don't get it, read this:
| Spoiler: | They took my favorite game and spoiled it. |
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14098
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| Posted: Thu, 8th Oct 2020 20:01 Post subject: |
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@Sin317 Since you never played any of the BG games and have no idea what people expect from a sequel you may aswell just stfu.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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