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Mutantius
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Location: In Elektro looking for beans
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 Posted: Fri, 24th Feb 2006 06:30 Post subject: |
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| Sublime wrote: | Yes but you really think that you'd do something for the hell of it knowing that someone else can quite easily do what you're doing?
Also even on a small scale the 'equality' thing will never work. If you're doing something there's usually sooner or later a scapegoat or a volunteer. This leads to more control / less work for the rest. This again could have a knock on effect until control isn't delegated to a few people and power is.
It's a landslide.
Why would someone want to do something for the good of society etc.? Surely this would only lead to parallel 'advancement' and it's all channeled down one path. there will be no alternatives and that will be the be all and end all.
3000 years ago it woulda worked possibly bt now it has no chance. and as for dividing food up... some people need different food end of subject. With rations etc. I think we'd lose a favourite past time which is completing against each other. I dont mean fighting but for instance in the plympics. It gives people the opportunity to be the best and achieve something on a personal level. I know that sports don't rely on food rationing but for some people it would be a big basis of their training and would seriously hinder performances otherwise.
unimportant examples maybe but they all have knock on and inter-connected points. |
Dude we have never stated the system could work in a modern day society... IMO we need to merge both Liberalism with Communism to achieve the best working society.
"Why don't you zip it, Zipfero?" - fraich3
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| Posted: Fri, 24th Feb 2006 06:45 Post subject: |
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Well imo I dont think its good at all. Do I want to be told what to do when to do it day in day out? no. I'd much rather go about my life as I see fit with the boundaries laid down by the law (in most cases).
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Mutantius
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| Posted: Fri, 24th Feb 2006 06:47 Post subject: |
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ehmm i siad combining those two (Liberalism and Communism), have the best aspects of both ideologie.
"Why don't you zip it, Zipfero?" - fraich3
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fraich3
Posts: 2907
Location: Not from my mouth!
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| Posted: Fri, 24th Feb 2006 06:53 Post subject: |
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I can see your points, Sublime, that communism would kill the competition and therfore the largest evolution in technologies, but that is also mainly theory.
What would be interesting is that perhaps it wouldnt be slowed down that much, because alot of companies wouldnt pay some people for laying down their research, or buy that technology just to make sure that it wouldnt be used. Wouldnt it then be interesting that scientist could reseach more freely without have a certain deadline but in by a company that just wanna make more money.
And to the "all men equally", there would stil be people who would do some jobs better then other and might be more suited for them. Still all the alot of lousy jobs would have to be preformed, but then again it would only be fair that those that didnt make it quite good in the school would have those. But they would stil make the same salary as the ones who did make it "good".
All in all i dont think that communism would kill the competition, it would just make work in another way. The Olympics for one is one of the worlds most acknowledged sports competitions and yet they dont get any cash pricez.
"Zipfero is the biggest fucking golddigger ever" - Mutantius
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| Posted: Fri, 24th Feb 2006 06:55 Post subject: |
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Thats like saying 'it would be great if noone was poor and everyone was happy and we didnt have the worldy truggles such as combating disease and pollution'
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Mutantius
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| Posted: Fri, 24th Feb 2006 06:58 Post subject: |
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Exactly. We must achieve those things on some level and the combination would be fantastic.
"Why don't you zip it, Zipfero?" - fraich3
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fraich3
Posts: 2907
Location: Not from my mouth!
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| Posted: Fri, 24th Feb 2006 07:02 Post subject: |
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Well, but the ideas of Communism and the ideas of Capitalism up against each other and see which comes close 
But i think i have stated in some where before but anyways, im not a commie i enjoy the liberal capitalism we live in and i would never vote for a communistisk goverment.
"In communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic." A Quote from Marx
As i see it, it isnt the flaw in the idea, but only the way out society have become since he came up with the idea. Just like the roman army after all their years got defeated because of their lack in seeing into the future of the new crafting. (Hey, its a metaphor  )
"Zipfero is the biggest fucking golddigger ever" - Mutantius
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| Posted: Fri, 24th Feb 2006 07:27 Post subject: |
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the roman army didnt get defeated because of how they were / acted it's because they were beaten by a small piece of mis-judgment. Maybe complacency too but they coulda reighned on and on and on if they didnt fuck up
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fraich3
Posts: 2907
Location: Not from my mouth!
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| Posted: Fri, 24th Feb 2006 07:36 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Fri, 24th Feb 2006 07:46 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Why is that? If you think of a society where everyone works for the good of the society and not for his own good(remember greed. page 3?) and understands its implications people may not get lazy |
Sounds like Hivemind.
| Quote: | | Why not the people itself. |
Have you tried getting 100 people to agree on an issue? How about 200? or 1 million? or 2 million? or 1 billion? or 2 billion? To have more than 1 million people agree on any single issue is nearly impossible. So your only choice is 1. impose the will of the majority onto the minority (democracy) or 2. force everyone to agree to whatever is decided by the government (like in China or Russia).
| Quote: | | Wouldnt it then be interesting that scientist could reseach more freely without have a certain deadline but in by a company that just wanna make more money. |
Or they can just do nothing, and still get paid (remember, in an ideal communism everyone gets the same pay no matter what you do or who you are).
A lazy dude who sits on the sofa watching TV all day gets paid the same amount as someone who work hard everyday.
| Quote: | | And to the "all men equally", there would stil be people who would do some jobs better then other and might be more suited for them. Still all the alot of lousy jobs would have to be preformed, but then again it would only be fair that those that didnt make it quite good in the school would have those. But they would stil make the same salary as the ones who did make it "good". |
Again, there's not much reason for wanting to do good in school, you will still get a job and get paid no matter what. In an ideal communism, there's no "good" job, or "bad" job, because such notion creates class division, i.e. doctors, lawyers look down on farmers, workers.
| Quote: | | "In communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, |
In an ideal coommunism, the government must decide what your career is, not you. It is against the ideal of communism if someone says "i'll do what makes me happy, not what makes society better" or "i'll do things that maximize my own pleasures". Who then would want to be a janitor? Who would want to do all the "lousy jobs"?
Despite what Marx thinks, Individualism is incompatible with communism. |
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| Posted: Fri, 24th Feb 2006 07:58 Post subject: |
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| vodkaLord wrote: | | Everything |
Exactly my point, just in more details.
As for the point about scientific research... you mention that it'd be better if people can do what they want? Well there's not that many restrictions now except a few vital ones that NEED to be enforced such as human testing and human cloning.
Also with communism it wouldn't give prople the priviledges to do as they please in this way at all. It'd have the much more negative and channeled approach like I said. |
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Mutantius
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| Posted: Fri, 24th Feb 2006 08:27 Post subject: |
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Communism will never work nothing more to say really thought it may help more people if it became a reality.
The world hunger issue is roughly because of capitalism and the greed its connected with. Though its a fact that capitalism serves people these days much better.
"Why don't you zip it, Zipfero?" - fraich3
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fraich3
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nouseforaname
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2006 11:22 Post subject: |
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Alot of people discussing fascism has usually no idea of what it is all about. I'm not saying that all of you don't know what it is, but how many of you have actually read the doctrine of fascism written by Benito Mussolini and Giovanni Gentile?
I had an discussion with a chinese once, that person lives in China and we were discussing this topic, fascism versus communism. When I said that fascism is a good thing I instantly got the reply "No! Fascism is bad, fascism will make peoply greedy". Well, every ideology will cause people to get greedy. When I asked what else she thought was bad about fascism she couldn't think of anything except for the holocaust which wasn't carried out by fascists (officially) but by national socialists and there are a thin line between those two ideologies. Yes, national socialism is strongly influenced by fascism, but it isn't real fascism. I'm not saying people are dumb because they don't know, but some should really go read some books about extreme ideologies (I'm not aiming for anyone here since I haven't read the whole thread).
The same things goes with the national socialists, people think they want to exterminate all of the human races except for the european, which is completley wrong and out of hand. Just because Hitler wanted to get rid of the jews, but do every single national socialist have to think like him? Do every communist think like Kim, Pol Pot, Stalin? No, national socialism want to make the countries genepool stay homogenous and not infected by other elements and races. It is not denying the right for people to live, as long as they stay in their part of the world. Every human race have their own abilities and none should be wiped out of this planet. All that the national socialists despies are the people who makes the society go downhill, such as drunkards, people addicted by narcotics and so on. I'm not very fond of national socialism over all, I wouldn't say "yes" if someone asked me if I believed in it. But I would rather live in a fascist or national socialistic country than in a communist one.
As for the clip, just because riot police are fighting and use excessive violence (which is wrong) they shouldn't be pointed out as fascists. I would agree if there were clips of the police going around downtown beating people up because of fun or something unrellevant. Fascism can be bad, it all depends on the leader. I would like to live in a fascist state, as long as the head of state/government doesn't snap. I don't really want to give all people the right to vote, some of them are just too dumb.
a melting spool of beggar negative frames
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fraich3
Posts: 2907
Location: Not from my mouth!
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2006 11:56 Post subject: |
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You do make a good point Bagshatar, and i would also agree that Hitlers regime wasnt exactly facism. But Nazism is indeed very similar to that of Mussoliini, even though Mussolini was the only real facist leader.
"Zipfero is the biggest fucking golddigger ever" - Mutantius
Last edited by fraich3 on Sat, 25th Feb 2006 17:49; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2006 17:20 Post subject: |
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| Bagshatar wrote: | | ..... I would like to live in a fascist state, as long as the head of state/government doesn't snap. I don't really want to give all people the right to vote, some of them are just too dumb. |
embarrassing! now go and wash your mouth with soap, tatoo a pentagram on your forhead, kneel and repent, you brown shirt boot polisher!
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| Posted: Tue, 28th Feb 2006 14:22 Post subject: |
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If a fascist country is run by Chuck Norris, i would be glad to live in it.
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