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 Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 10:58 Post subject: |
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Thanks for the crowbcat video, those comparisons to the likes of Saints Row 1 and fucking Lego City Undercover hit the nail on the head. I don't get people that still praise this as a diamond in the rough. It's not. There is no hidden masterpiece here, it's just a pile of shit covered in layers and layers of bugs. At this point I firmly believe that the sheer amount of bugs was actually a saving grace for CDPR, as most negative media coverage focuses on those (and them beiing fixable) instead of it just not being a good game.
Maybe it could have been a decent linear FPS with nice cutscenes if they had focused on that part and made the combat somewhat enjoyable, but it will never be a good open world game. It's embarrassing how far it is from being a "true next-gen open world game". I get that not every company can be Rockstar but they didn't have to be. If it was at least close to the levels of, say, Watchdogs. They didn't care about the most basic things, things that had been included in games 15 years ago!
I preordered The Witcher III and even though it was a bit rough, it was a great game right from the start, so I never felt ripped of, despite all the downgrade shenanigans. But this time they went massively overboard. They had to know that this was not even close to being finished, I mean we are talking maybe 2 or more years of development time to get it close to where they promised it would be. They actively suppressed reviews of the game to not hurt their sales and when the shit hit the fan, they came out with sad dog eyes and some bullshit about "not paying enough attention". Fuck them. They knew exactly what they had and they gambled on gamers being stupid enough to praise even this garbage just because it is from one of the "good" guys and of course it has to be great because otherwise people would have to admit that they have been duped. Unfortunately, I think they were right and most people will have forgotten about CDPRs scumbaggery by the time they announce their next Witcher game.
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garus
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 11:00 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:20; edited 1 time in total
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harry_theone
Posts: 11210
Location: The Land of Thread Reports
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 11:17 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 11:24 Post subject: |
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| garus wrote: |
Funny you say that, because it's a common opinion that Rockstar's games would be better without the open world aspect. Especially evident in RDR2. |
Not sure how common that actually is. I remember people complaining about the gameplay in RDR2 and it being slow-ish. But what was wrong about the open world?
I think Rockstar are masters when it comes to filling their worlds with fun content that makes them feel interactive and worthwile to explore. I spent countless hours in every one of their open world games just dicking around. In CP2077, they designed an interesting looking cityscape and then abandonend it. So you have mostly nice visuals as you battle the horrible driving system and the bugs to get to your next hallway shootout.
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harry_theone
Posts: 11210
Location: The Land of Thread Reports
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 12:20 Post subject: |
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| Kater Mikesch wrote: | Thanks for the crowbcat video, those comparisons to the likes of Saints Row 1 and fucking Lego City Undercover hit the nail on the head. I don't get people that still praise this as a diamond in the rough. It's not. There is no hidden masterpiece here, it's just a pile of shit covered in layers and layers of bugs. At this point I firmly believe that the sheer amount of bugs was actually a saving grace for CDPR, as most negative media coverage focuses on those (and them beiing fixable) instead of it just not being a good game.
Maybe it could have been a decent linear FPS with nice cutscenes if they had focused on that part and made the combat somewhat enjoyable, but it will never be a good open world game. It's embarrassing how far it is from being a "true next-gen open world game". I get that not every company can be Rockstar but they didn't have to be. If it was at least close to the levels of, say, Watchdogs. They didn't care about the most basic things, things that had been included in games 15 years ago!
I preordered The Witcher III and even though it was a bit rough, it was a great game right from the start, so I never felt ripped of, despite all the downgrade shenanigans. But this time they went massively overboard. They had to know that this was not even close to being finished, I mean we are talking maybe 2 or more years of development time to get it close to where they promised it would be. They actively suppressed reviews of the game to not hurt their sales and when the shit hit the fan, they came out with sad dog eyes and some bullshit about "not paying enough attention". Fuck them. They knew exactly what they had and they gambled on gamers being stupid enough to praise even this garbage just because it is from one of the "good" guys and of course it has to be great because otherwise people would have to admit that they have been duped. Unfortunately, I think they were right and most people will have forgotten about CDPRs scumbaggery by the time they announce their next Witcher game. |
But just because it was in games 15 years ago doesn't mean that it is simple, but of course it was CDProject Red that awoke those expectations. They bit off a much bigger chunk than they could chew. If you take a look at the detail of the world you can see that they have one of the best design teams around. Everything from art style to faces to vehicle design and especially the city is top notch (with some exceptions) and sometimes even unparalleled, not even by much bigger teams. But where it lacks is gameplay. Everything from loot, to equipement management, story progression to upgrades and the skilltree is simply put broken. 10% more crit damage? Once attached it's 110% more crit damage. 8 more damage for your weapon? I think you meant 200! more dmg!! But it'll take 2 hours of grinding to collect enough points to decrease your reload time by 3% to 6%  The whole police system is broken and the pedestrians are (give or take) on par with GTA 3 pedestrians. |
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 12:33 Post subject: |
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You could make a video about how other games do certain things better than Witcher 3. Probably can squeeze Lego City Undercover in there somehow too. It's a strawman nothing more. crowbcat is severely overrated. GTA 4 > GTA 5 because of full euphoria instead of the lite version?
That being said, Cyberpunk is a mess that they will never magically turn into the game it should have been. Unless they No Man's Sky it for the next 4 years or more. Which they won't.
The issues run too deep and are far beyond bugs and glitches and missing features. Even the entire main story falls short.
We'd literally have to be playing a different game in a couple of years that looks very similar and has a lot of the same characters and missions but apart from that is something else.
Kinda like what Square did with FINAL FANTASY XIV A Realm Reborn but on steroids.
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 12:34 Post subject: |
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Sin317
Banned
Posts: 24322
Location: Geneva
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 12:40 Post subject: |
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Amadeus literally made a statement and then cancelled it. In one sentence (there should be a , in front of the "unless" ^^)
You can't say "there never will be" and then "unless", lol.
That's a paradox.
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 12:40 Post subject: |
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Great game, I enjoyed it very much. It's a beautifully crafted world, looks brilliant at times and it ran well. I had visual glitches here and there, but no major bugs. Some things got stuck on screen, I had to quicksave and quickload sometimes. I played this as I do any open world game though, mission to mission. I probably skipped much of the non-mission buggy content. I don't quite understand what a sandbox world adds to gaming, but that's me I guess. I never understood all the small quests. Why not invest that time into proper quests? I'd take a proper (semi)-linear experience any time,
This leads to my main complaint, the MQ was very average. It was short and pretty bland, a disappointment. I don't quite remember how Witcher 3 was before all the patching and DLC, but I think it had a much more interesting and intricate storyline. There were great characters and at times awesome writing, but the MQ didn't deliver until the very end IMO. The gangs should have gotten more screentime, world building should have been better and the famed C&C from Witcher was nowhere to be found.
I got what I expected I think, a beautifully crafted game with average gameplay. The only thing that truly surprised was the quality of the shooting, I expected to be bored with it.
8.75/10
Last edited by Mister_s on Tue, 19th Jan 2021 12:41; edited 1 time in total
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Il_Padrino
Posts: 7551
Location: Greece by the North Sea
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 12:41 Post subject: |
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I watched those Night City Wire episodes again, and there's so much bs in it, it's incredible. They were already smart enough to not flat out lie about things, but a lot is implied and purposely obscure.
Pretty much all of the (non-combat) footage that they show, that's supposed/implied to be open-world gameplay or activities, is just taken from the non-interactive cutscenes.
Wow, you can buy and eat food from food stalls! -> yeah, that was the cutscene with Takemura.
The videos are full of this stuff.
Crowbcat video was amazing
"We aim to be as refined as RDR2 at launch"
The problem, btw, with RDR2 is not it's open world, but its on-rail/linear quests that don't allow any flexibility.
Cyberpunk has problems with both; it suffers from an open world that has 0 content, and on-rail/linear quests where player choice has no impact (apart from a few ones).
There must have been a door there in the wall, when I came in.
Truly gone fishing.
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prudislav
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Posts: 29148
Location: The land of beer and porn
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 13:02 Post subject: |
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| Il_Padrino wrote: | The problem, btw, with RDR2 is not it's open world, but its on-rail/linear quests that don't allow any flexibility.
Cyberpunk has problems with both; it suffers from an open world that has 0 content, and on-rail/linear quests where player choice has no impact (apart from a few ones). |
huh , RDR2 quest design was making me nuts so many times , weirdly enough didnt have same issue with CP  |
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 13:54 Post subject: |
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You don't develop a game extremely focused on a city and make said city behave like a retard, end of the line. The fact that an open world is carefully crafted and reacts in a plausible way makes the immersion immensely better - something Cyberpunk should shine with, yeah ? I guess not, and we should be content it manages to do worse than very old, with much lower budget, games ? Please.. !
I don't believe most people are disappointed with the lack of side activities and the open-world crapola as a whole (it's always welcome when done right and can marginally help with the immersion, but it's ultimately dispensable), it's just that Night City feels unfinished, there's so many occasions where your immersion and sense of belief are completely crushed by very simple, stupid shit that was solved 10+ years ago, as Crowbcat video very well displayed. Of course you'll find X open world game that has this neat feature Y game doesn't, it's a pointless comparison on the margins, but every single example he showcased is really basic stuff, not pesky details one can overlook without a good dose of covering your eyes up.
I guess it's fine if you don't care and only rush from main mission to main mission - which in any normal RPG or open-world game, is pretty much a waste, but it's Cyberpunk so I figure it's fine to play like that to some.
RDR2's missions are indeed on rails, which is maddening (can't count the failed missions because I decided to go for another approach/couldn't figure the rails out ). Cyberpunk's are better in that regard, but not by a enormous margin either - and it's often more accidental aka player figuring out a path than actually intentional on the devs' behalf.
But.. RDR2 immersed me like not many games have managed to. The world is believable, how its NPCs (humans and animals alike) behave, it's basically flawless in that regard. Maaaaybe don't claim your game is up to that excellent standard, or just don't have the ambition to flesh out an entire city altogether if its inhabitants are meant to be an accessory and not one of the main "characters".
Yeah, the city and its characters are wonderfully designed, up to very excellent standards, but its substance is way more shallow than it can sustain - for me, at least.
I'll play this a. when upgrading my rig is done b. after a couple months, hopefully fixing the most immersion-breaking mistakes.
PS : And happy new year y'all ! 
Last edited by TheZor on Tue, 19th Jan 2021 14:28; edited 2 times in total
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Il_Padrino
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 14:33 Post subject: |
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I played RDR2 on PS4 when it launched, there was so much wrong with it. It was a great game, but there were a bunch of face palm moments. What progress did Rockstar make after decades? They are still using their same old stale gameplay.
I'm not saying one studio is better or worse than the other btw, I don't care about that. It just seems I had a different experience with the RDR and GTA games. Loved them, but both series have a bunch of idiotic/bad design decisions. Just like Cyberpunk.
Last edited by Mister_s on Tue, 19th Jan 2021 14:37; edited 1 time in total
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Frant
King's Bounty
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Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 14:36 Post subject: |
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Rockstar is much much bigger than CDPR with a massively larger budget, 2-3 times as many epmployees etc. so you're probably right about CDPR not really having enough top-tier talent (whether developers or management etc.) or resources to do a game of this scope. They needed at least another 8-12 months to finish making this game alternatively they shouldn't have over-promised and failed to deliver (ie. biting off more than they could chew).
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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prudislav
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Location: The land of beer and porn
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 14:40 Post subject: |
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| Mister_s wrote: | | I played RDR2 on PS4 when it launched, there was so much wrong with it. It was a great game, but there were a bunch of face palm moments. What progress did Rockstar make after decades? They are still using their same old stale gameplay. |
but but its emmuhrsive and awesomesauce .... just look at them animatins and cutscene details.
tbh RDR2 was one of my biggest dissapointments of 2020 , yes the story is great and overall game is fine solid 8 , its just the game is high up in its own ass thats maddening.... i pretty much have to force myself to go through the main missions , like there has been so many times i just launched it , lassoed few people and turned the game off. Enjoyed the first game much more .
As for the WD3 comparision , cant say much , gave it around 6 hours and got bored of it to such degree than i never came back to it |
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harry_theone
Posts: 11210
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 15:16 Post subject: |
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Yeah, at this point, it has to be a matter of taste, selective outrage or something.
Cars going around you or bullets making a splash on water had to cost billions !
I agree that RDR2's missions are very lacklustre in terms of freedom and overall complexity and are considerably worse than the rest of the package, which is pretty much flawless ; but Cyberpunk's aren't exactly ground breaking either - and to be frank, are quite similar to Rockstar's in their general frame.
You can make fun of putting emphasis on "muh immersion" all you want, but I think it's a pretty fucking important point in those open-world, RPG-lite games which are supposed to transport you to another setting/time. NPC routines (which were promised time and time again for Cyberpunk) are believable throughout the entity of the day and plausible reactions (noting too complex) flesh a world out so much to me. If you don't care about that and find that little to no progress over the Witcher 3 is cool, that's fine, but it doesn't make everyone else a fat derp either. And you wonder why so little are left here..
We were clearly discussing immersion and the believability of the open world, not the gameplay loops in themselves 
Last edited by TheZor on Tue, 19th Jan 2021 15:21; edited 2 times in total
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 15:19 Post subject: |
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| TheZor wrote: | Yeah, at this point, it has to be a matter of taste, selective outrage or something.
Cars going around you or bullets making a splash on water had to cost billions !
I agree that RDR2's missions are lacklustre in terms of freedom and overall complexity and are considerably worse than the rest of the package which is pretty much flawless ; but Cyberpunk's aren't exactly ground breaking either - and to be frank, are quite similar to Rockstar's in their general frame.
You can make fun of putting emphasis on "muh immersion" all you want, but I think it's a pretty fucking important point in those open-world, RPG-lite games which are supposed to transport you to another setting/time. If you don't and find that little to no progress over the Witcher 3 is cool, that's fine, but it doesn't make everyone else a deep either. And you wonder why so little are left here.. |
You are right. I can look past some "clipping", "T posing" characters, but happenning every minute is quite "game breaking" bug. Going this route why don't CDPR do this:
-Hey player! Give us 60USD
-Now try to imagine how you would interact in a Cyberpunk world!
-Enjoy!
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 15:52 Post subject: |
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People should preface their posts with whether they bought the game or demo'd it.
I feel that demo'd it admit it's a fucking nightmare and those that bought it will defend it until their death.
*DEMO'D*
I MIGHT have bought it for $19.99
It's hot garbage.
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Sin317
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Il_Padrino
Posts: 7551
Location: Greece by the North Sea
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 16:35 Post subject: |
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| prudislav wrote: |
tbh RDR2 was one of my biggest dissapointments of 2020 , yes the story is great and overall game is fine solid 8 , its just the game is high up in its own ass thats maddening.... i pretty much have to force myself to go through the main missions , like there has been so many times i just launched it , lassoed few people and turned the game off. Enjoyed the first game much more .
As for the WD3 comparision , cant say much , gave it around 6 hours and got bored of it to such degree than i never came back to it |
The be clear: I actually enjoyed CP2077 more than RDR2 and, obviously, WD3. Same as you, I feel I have to force myself to continue with both games. I had the same with CP2077 for a while, it only 'clicked' once I met Panam. The solid writing & acting in CP was never up to debate.
But objectively, RDR2 is a much better game, I won't deny that.
And I bought it (well, Steam gift card, but still  ), after December 10 even, knowing fully well what to expect.
There must have been a door there in the wall, when I came in.
Truly gone fishing.
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 18:24 Post subject: |
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Would argue though that RDR2 and especially WD3 are not much of a competition.
RDR2 is a technical masterpiece that puts CP2077 to shame. It just works. Most all parts of it, runs well, plays well, in parts extreme attention to detail and basically the height of "last gen" in terms of graphics.
But oh my god is it boring and forgettable.
It's much much harder to fault Cyperpunk 2077 for that. Especially the main missions. If you were to do just those and say "that wasn't good" then maybe you aren't very fair.
Still ofc falls short by a mile and then some of the promises and what it should have been. But you can see the quality in it in places. The game it could have been
And I suppose that's the great tragedy of it.
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 19:34 Post subject: |
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| TheZor wrote: |
I agree that RDR2's missions are very lacklustre in terms of freedom and overall complexity and are considerably worse than the rest of the package, which is pretty much flawless ; but Cyberpunk's aren't exactly ground breaking either - and to be frank, are quite similar to Rockstar's in their general frame.
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I bounced back from RDR2 hard for that very reason, it gave you little freedom in missions, while basically forcing you to marvel at it's "cinematic glory" and the abundance of mundane activities just killed it for me.
Cyberpunk isn't groundbreaking, sure. It's basically Deus Ex with an open world, but what it does does really well. I played Mankind Divided just a few weeks ago and Cyberpunk is a worthy successor, with a much better world and story around it. It doesn't do anything more than that game, but it does it really well.
Because the game is an Immersive Sim in an open world. If you're to infiltrate somewhere you have a multitude of options - frontal or stealth, through the back door or roof, hacking the main control room or force opening an access hatch. And even a lot of the minor side stuff gives you options, with more complex quests being even more expansive.
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 20:04 Post subject: |
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| sunseeker wrote: | | I bounced back from RDR2 hard for that very reason, it gave you little freedom in missions, while basically forcing you to marvel at it's "cinematic glory"... |
That's because you didn't understand or accept that RDR2 is in fact a STORY that you get to experience through the eyes of a character that isn't YOU.
You only marginally influence an already mostly written outcome. Arthur's story is essentially already set in stone.
The liberty in open ended activities is just a 'filler' that can satisfy one or not. |
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Nodrim
Posts: 9586
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 20:39 Post subject: |
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| sunseeker wrote: | | I played Mankind Divided just a few weeks ago and Cyberpunk is a worthy successor, with a much better world and story around it. It doesn't do anything more than that game, but it does it really well. |
This is all kinds of wrong. Mankind Divided is a more mature game with a better level design, a better skill system, better stealth mechanics and a better AI. CP2077 is by no means its successor, it's a clusterfuck of genres that doesn't do well by any of them.
Just because you have multiple options, doesn't mean they amount to much in terms of gameplay. By this logic, Invisible War is a masterpiece.
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bronson
Posts: 1384
Location: Asteroid B-612
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 21:02 Post subject: |
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| Amadeus wrote: | Would argue though that RDR2 and especially WD3 are not much of a competition.
RDR2 is a technical masterpiece that puts CP2077 to shame. It just works. Most all parts of it, runs well, plays well, in parts extreme attention to detail and basically the height of "last gen" in terms of graphics.
But oh my god is it boring and forgettable.
It's much much harder to fault Cyperpunk 2077 for that. Especially the main missions. If you were to do just those and say "that wasn't good" then maybe you aren't very fair.
Still ofc falls short by a mile and then some of the promises and what it should have been. But you can see the quality in it in places. The game it could have been
And I suppose that's the great tragedy of it. |
Yeah, I enjoyed the story and characters. Night City, the visuals, the soundtrack were great. That's something CDPR always excelled at. Gameplay is where their games suffer the most. Combat, itemization, balance, etc. And in Cyberpunk they are the worst I've experienced in a CDPR game. It was too ambitious project and it fell apart. The open world elements are a joke, and the fact they were hyping up this title's open world to be on the same level of R*'s games is a blatant lie. It needed at least one more year in development, if not more.
Cue the Miyamoto quote.
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Jan 2021 21:11 Post subject: |
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| blackeyedboy wrote: |
That's because you didn't understand or accept that RDR2 is in fact a STORY that you get to experience through the eyes of a character that isn't YOU.
You only marginally influence an already mostly written outcome. Arthur's story is essentially already set in stone. |
That's fine, but I still didn't like it and had to force myself to play from the opening hour until I finally let go. It still didn't work for me as a game though, that's why I was never vocal about it. Just let it be.
| Nodrim wrote: |
This is all kinds of wrong. Mankind Divided is a more mature game with a better level design, a better skill system, better stealth mechanics and a better AI. CP2077 is by no means its successor, it's a clusterfuck of genres that doesn't do well by any of them. |
Sure it has a grimmer tone and a much more mature topic at hand, but having played it just weeks ago, I have a direct comparison. Hard disagree on level design, in that department CP doesn't fail me at all. If anything makes some things a bit too obvious, but I might have just gotter better at figuring out gaming tropes. AI is roughly on the same level (which itself is unflattering considering it's an over 4 year old game). The only place where I will agree is the skill/augment tree, where in Cyberpunk it's too easy to spec out into a one man army while in MD you have to make compromises of sorts.
I guess one could say that for the hype, CP doesn't improve enough over MD, but in the context of what it does, does well. I'm glued to the game and keen to explore to push the story forward.
In the context of immersive sims, it's not better than Prey though.
7800x3D, 32GB DDR5 6000MHz, RTX 5070
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