@Leo
My definition of an MMO:
Persistent world on a server shared by thousands of players that can interact with each other and the world's objects,npc's...
You can add some more features to that but if we stick to basics that should be it. Payment system, combat system,... and such just narrow the specifics down but not what an MMO is.
I should ask you what Turn Based means to you? Because most MMO's aren't turn based. Spells on cooldown is quite common in games that you wouldn't call turn based either.
For ex. the cooldowns on my Rogue in WoW are faster than some action rpg game's cooldowns on spells (Was even more so in the Legion expansion). Some don't even have a cooldown but you manage resources, like a lot of other games. So I fail to see how that is turn based.
The rotation of 112142441 or whatever I can easily apply to other games. But people would say: dodge, strike, block, special, roll... which in turn is also just a sequence of keystrokes. I also still need to move (dodge attacks), use defensive actions when doing content that isn't outgeared. So ain't it rather bizarre to call it turn based when its real time combat?
As to your example why EVE couldn't work with Elite or Star Shitizen controls? I'm sure it could and still be an MMO... but again: then we're talking about a niche genre in a niche genre. I should have said MMORPG's from the beginning but I'm so used of saying MMO's instead.
Star Citizen likes to call itself an MMO: has instance hubs smaller than some shooters... so no it wouldn't qualify as an MMO for me.
I know though, the definition of MMO's these days is just whatever they want to slap on it. Even us players have been guilty of that.
"thousands of players that can interact with each other"
only eve online and planet side still fits that description these days as all the others have become tiny little sharded server shit of maximum like 100 people or so and become unplayable when 1000 get together, already struggle with 100 peepz
heck even eve online has to slow down TIME itself a hundreth of a milisecond to keep it playable, baciscly making mmos a big fat lie atm, thousands of players nobody managed to get working in realtime meaningfull
i dont know how planetside did it, they kept things smoothish and playable though with 250-500 people
warband modded servers also were very smooth and very intricate combat with 250 people but that is on supertiny maps worth 500kb of data and not in a persistent world
Last edited by PickupArtist on Sat, 5th Sep 2020 21:07; edited 2 times in total
I think some of the biggest WvWvW maps in Guild Wars 2 can have up to 600 players. Haven't played that game for ages but I am sure there are 300 player maps. Tho it runs like shit. I doubt they fixed it in the recent years. Even in world bosses where you get 50-60 players in one place I used to go down to 10 FPS.
@Leo
My definition of an MMO:
Persistent world on a server shared by thousands of players that can interact with each other and the world's objects,npc's...
You can add some more features to that but if we stick to basics that should be it. Payment system, combat system,... and such just narrow the specifics down but not what an MMO is.
I should ask you what Turn Based means to you? Because most MMO's aren't turn based. Spells on cooldown is quite common in games that you wouldn't call turn based either.
For ex. the cooldowns on my Rogue in WoW are faster than some action rpg game's cooldowns on spells (Was even more so in the Legion expansion). Some don't even have a cooldown but you manage resources, like a lot of other games. So I fail to see how that is turn based.
The rotation of 112142441 or whatever I can easily apply to other games. But people would say: dodge, strike, block, special, roll... which in turn is also just a sequence of keystrokes. I also still need to move (dodge attacks), use defensive actions when doing content that isn't outgeared. So ain't it rather bizarre to call it turn based when its real time combat?
As to your example why EVE couldn't work with Elite or Star Shitizen controls? I'm sure it could and still be an MMO... but again: then we're talking about a niche genre in a niche genre. I should have said MMORPG's from the beginning but I'm so used of saying MMO's instead.
Star Citizen likes to call itself an MMO: has instance hubs smaller than some shooters... so no it wouldn't qualify as an MMO for me.
I know though, the definition of MMO's these days is just whatever they want to slap on it. Even us players have been guilty of that.
Right, I accept the distinction between MMO/MMORPG. I was speaking about MMORPG mostly. Classically, MMOs are usually MMORPGs, and somehow most MMORPGs are what I dislike about many RPGs in general.
Cool downs on a timer are elements of turn based for me, even if in a real-time action setting. It makes as much sense to have each spell locked for 30 seconds after use as to have 8vs8 people all stand like imbeciles, taking pot shots one at a time. There should be other means to prevent spam of spells, like for instance the amount it takes to cast them, so it becomes risk vs reward.
Leaving spells aside, not all character archetypes use spell. You have warriors, which too have "cooldowns" on attacks, which makes even less sense. It's a retarded mechanism. And the net result is still that two (or more) characters stand around, dance from time to time, and numbers pop up from the other character. It's stupid. Why can't the warrior class in World of Retardcraft have combat mechanics of Batman Arkham? Imagine a warrior with that moveset running toward you, while you need to make some spells to slow them or kill them. Now that sounds exciting! Not warrior running, comes near your wizard character, then both stand like retards, the warrior taking pot shots from time to time, while the wizard farts colors from time to time.
I agree that dodge/strike isn't a good mechanic either. That's why I hate the combat in Witcher 3, which is exactly that. Still, it's more exciting than pot shots and farting colors.
I get what you are saying but at the same time I'm also thinking: but half of your spells don't have a long CD and some have none. The ones with 30 seconds or more are usually dmg boosters or dmg mitigation.
When was the last time you tried World of Retardcraft btw? Because to me the wait times you describe sound like the first expansions.
But yeah combat can always improve, I'm not sure if it can be something complex but that's because I don't remember any MMO doing it (doubt they all wanted brainless combat from the get go). I haven't played the Batmens so I don't know how that combat looks or plays.
But a warrior running towards a mage and you needing to slow him down and get distance or nuke him down as a mental pyromaniac... that's already in WoW.
I have a hard time grasping what kind of combat it is what you want since I haven't tried Batmen.
I do know that a lot of people want Dark Soul combat these days... but honestly I never thought that was THAT special either. I mean to me that sounds more like they want harder/better A.I. instead of roll and dodge combat.
(Not saying WoW is a great game or has great gameplay btw... it's after all the MMO that made it mainstream )
Edit: btw mention some games with good combat you'd like to see in this genre. Not to shoot you down on what you think are good ones...but to get more insight in those. I always assumed the batmen games were just beat em ups, nothing too special. You mentioning it here did at least give me some interest in trying it.
The slowing down you talk of is just "123123123" and letting the colors you fart reach the target you set. Not much skill required (or a different kind of skill: instead of actual combat, you just hit "123123123").
It is beat em up, but what "beat em up" means is just real-time combat. The Batman games have a lot of depth in their fighting. Why can't beat em up mechanics work in an RPG (MMO or otherwise)? Why does RPG always bring the "wait a bit" and "randomgz numberz" nonsense with it, instead of ... role playing someone that is skilled in their craft—in this case, brawling?
I disagree. I mean, sure, x x x x is possible, but isn’t get you far. You can master the combat and it’s very in-depth, if you want it to be. They also allow x x x x because it’s a console game, and can’t have really challenging games on that.
Mm'yeah about 10/15 years ago I had thoughts that an MMO with Beat-em-up style for melee and FPS for ranged would be nice. Same with collision detection but that sucked balls with dozens of players in one spot when I tried one that had it.
There has been beat-em-up MMO's but that was usually low budget freemium asian crap. Can't remember the few that I tried, they never lasted more than a day or two. Those definitely became stale within a few hours, but that be a bit easy to judge a combat system on. It's after all, run of the mill MMO crap.
Phill mentioned it... I think I'd first like to see our SP gaming to come with some improvements. The way I play WoW is like a senior on a bus trip anyway. More in it for the sights, world and the lore.
I'm sure I could still raid or do Mythic if I applied myself (based on when I do group up with people and seeing their average skill), just can't be bothered with it any more.
I think the main issue with mmo's was and still is, latency.
Hit detection, lag, etc... What was it, Neocron, that tried FPS or TPS mechanics in a mmo. Didn't work out well. Combat was dull af.
And Leo is right, mmorpgs mainly use a "behind the curtain" dice roll system, mixed with a CD system. But yeah, everything that happens is a dice roll in essence.
But I still don't understand why latency should be an issue. We've had shooters with 128 people on the same map, which is way above a normal MMORPG's instance size.
Dice roll are puzzling to me. I never understood why they are still a thing in 2000 or 2010 or 2020. I mean, on a table-top game, there is no other choice. But why would a "role" "playing" game use that in a world where you clearly move in real time, and you are supposed to be some legendary warrior or wizard, but nope, gonna stand like a prick with my thumb in my ass, and fart colors and hope that the die cast is in my favor? It's retarded. When soldiers shoot skillfully, the bullets go into people's heads and they die. If the soldiers are too far or not very skilled, they hit the body body armor, and only maybe break a rib, slowing the opponent. This is what "role" "playing" should be, not this die-casting rng shit.
The root problem with Amazon trying to make games is that they tried from the start to go with whatever formulas seemed successful from outside the industry. If they had gone for a smaller game as a debut title, it's pretty likely they would have been successful at this point.
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The root problem with Amazon trying to make games is that they tried from the start to go with whatever formulas seemed successful from outside the industry. If they had gone for a smaller game as a debut title, it's pretty likely they would have been successful at this point.
Alll studio's start small. It's actually very hard to make a succesfull game. Take cyberpunk, cd project despite being able to learn from the Witcher series and being a competent dev still made huge mistakes in the proces of developing. Starting out a new studio, throwing in some money to develop AAA games seems impossible.
Mike Frazzini had never made a video game when he helped start Amazon Game Studios. Eight years later, he has released two duds, withdrew both from stores after a torrent of negative reactions and canceled many more.
Quote:
Frazzini is an Amazon lifer who came up in the books section of the website, where he endeared himself to Jeff Bezos as a manager there. Conventional wisdom inside the company is that if you can run one business, you can run any other. Amazon’s deep financial resources certainly help.
But they didn't put people from inside the company in charge of these projects. They actually hired veterans.
Whose work has to be approved by insider executives who are searching for the "fun" and pulling up videogame news sites up on their phones and asking the devs "can't we do this too?" and other dumb shit like that.
boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote:
i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then
Mike Frazzini had never made a video game when he helped start Amazon Game Studios. Eight years later, he has released two duds, withdrew both from stores after a torrent of negative reactions and canceled many more.
Quote:
Frazzini is an Amazon lifer who came up in the books section of the website, where he endeared himself to Jeff Bezos as a manager there. Conventional wisdom inside the company is that if you can run one business, you can run any other. Amazon’s deep financial resources certainly help.
Those are the heads of the publishing company, I'm talking about project leads.
Crucible was Colin Johanson's project who left Guild Wars 2 to work on this.
I believe New World is John Liberto's project who worked on plenty of games before.
tonizito wrote:
Nodrim wrote:
But they didn't put people from inside the company in charge of these projects. They actually hired veterans.
Whose work has to be approved by insider executives who are searching for the "fun" and pulling up videogame news sites up on their phones and asking the devs "can't we do this too?" and other dumb shit like that.
But isn't this the case for most non-indie studios? How is this any different? Just take a look at the mess that is Cyberpunk 2077. What do you think has happened there?
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