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 Posted: Tue, 7th Sep 2021 03:17 Post subject: |
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The 900 mb patch they released yesterday allrdy fixed a lot of stuff these guys work fast.
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Sep 2021 09:32 Post subject: |
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| AmpegV4 wrote: | | This game showcases how superior turn based is in every way. |
how is the AI though? kingmaker AI was never really tweaked for turn-based, so i'm wondering how it stacks up here?
i wish it we could just get d&d turn-based as good as temple of elemental evil, and maybe these games are starting to get close, but the AI wasn't there in the last game..
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Sep 2021 09:38 Post subject: |
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I used to prefer turn-based to everything else, but as I am getting older I started preferring the infinity engine real time with pause combat.
I have less and less time and patience to sit through turn based stuff and it just ends up putting me off the game after many hours, so I will definitely opt for RT.
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Sep 2021 10:17 Post subject: |
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Yea to be honest I have a problem with TB games with slow animation speed and having to wait extra between turns.
I don't need 2 minutes of thinking for every fucking turn, many of them will be basic obvious choices i can make in a second and I want them to be played out right away and fast.
If I have to watch the enemy slowly crawl across the whole field to reach one of my characters after a minute and then do a very slow animation, with a damage display that hovers for another 10 seconds and then a pause with the prompt "YOUR TURN" for another 20 secs, then fuck that shit.
Atleast just let me skip the animations or fast forward and mash through the prompts.
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Sep 2021 10:55 Post subject: |
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| jermore wrote: | | AmpegV4 wrote: | | This game showcases how superior turn based is in every way. |
how is the AI though? kingmaker AI was never really tweaked for turn-based, so i'm wondering how it stacks up here?
i wish it we could just get d&d turn-based as good as temple of elemental evil, and maybe these games are starting to get close, but the AI wasn't there in the last game.. |
Works fine as far as i can see.
| The_Zeel wrote: | Yea to be honest I have a problem with TB games with slow animation speed and having to wait extra between turns.
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There are separate animation speed sliders for both your party and enemy's/npcs so that''s not really a problem not to mention you can seamlessly switch between rtwp and tb whenever you like.
Last edited by tet666 on Tue, 7th Sep 2021 11:02; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Sep 2021 11:01 Post subject: |
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nice, will try both then.
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Sep 2021 11:16 Post subject: |
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AI is dumb but the encounters are balanced around it. Enemy stupidity is countered by just shoveling lots of tough enemies at the player. If the enemy targeted intelligently then the game would be pretty hopeless on core rules as is unless you seriously munchkin your party.
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Sep 2021 18:50 Post subject: |
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Pathfinder WoTR or... 'How I learned to over-complicate my gamer life - the simulation'.
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Sep 2021 19:10 Post subject: |
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@Divvy
Thats the problem I think all D&D/Tabletop -> computer games using book rules in a AI setting I think.
None of them do it 'well'. They follow the rules, but balancing those rules and decisions off them is a sliding scale. Some do it better than others, but in tabletop the GM/DM can intelligently make enemies dumber/distracted/tougher/focused to keep an encounter balanced. (Not to mention the CR rating is hot garbage other than in a rough vague ballpark way).
You know in person, easier to balance say a group of bugbears to a group of players working well together, as well as one having a 'bad day'. If you played both encounters blindly fair one group would murder them, while the other party wipes.
(Great example from our Saturday game a few days ago...group breezed thru 2 manticores. But later 3 goblins under a table shiving them in the shins and tripping them nearly killed them until I made goblins do even 'dumber' goblin things than they already was).
So I think PC versions opt for "Dumber but more of them" so no single enemy being used to full potential kills 1/2 the party. Even the gold standards like Baldurs Gate, and Neverwinter Nights, had some pretty dumb NPC/Mobs compared to what they could be played as if playing them intelligently.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
Last edited by DXWarlock on Tue, 7th Sep 2021 19:38; edited 1 time in total
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Nodrim
Posts: 9598
Location: Romania
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Sep 2021 19:21 Post subject: |
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From what I could gather, Pathfinder rules are not that well balanced for the PnP. Translating them into a cRPG won't make a balanced game, unless the developer makes some compromises. They didn't do much in terms of compromising and that's obvious. I like Pathfinder a lot, but I think Mask of the Betrayer did a much better job a at translating DND into a PC game.
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Sep 2021 19:29 Post subject: |
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Yea Pathfinder isn't balanced in itself which is fine for tabletop, I personally prefer tRPG rules that are not. Let players/DM decide how big a spread they want in power. Not try to make everything blandly equal.
For example in a game called Rifts you can have one player start in a high tech robo mech that shoots 3d6*10 damage from a shoulder cannon. And another player that is a vagabond that lists starting gear as "Sturdy plastic bag with toothbrush, comb, and matches. Basic Clothes and a pistol."
HORRIBLE options for a PC game..no one would pick vagabond, but can be fun in tabletop because of the freedom of 'try to do anything you can think of' to come up with ideas of how to help as the vagabond. (We had a guy that played one with a high acrobatics, so he ran around in combat leaping on Mechs, climbing up with spray paint painting the facemasks solid black so pilot couldn't see and has to use only sensors to try to fight)
I think the only way they could make a balanced PC game for pathfinder that computer logic/AI could manage is if they narrowed down a LOT of choices and hand picked list of 'fair' mobs/NPCs.. but that is what makes pathfinder, pathfinder.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Sep 2021 21:19 Post subject: |
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I freakin loved Rifts and their rule set for the most part. To me, it always made more sense than DnD. Don’t get me wrong, the rules were always stated with such that hey are just guidelines and you can play how you want but their base structure was good I thought. The palladium line in general I mean.
| couleur wrote: | Everything I don't understand is a mental disorder.  |
| couleur wrote: | | If the illegals are drowning its their fault for attempting to cross the river in the first place. Especially the children. /s |
| russ80 wrote: | | Who cares about gameplay. It's one of the few next-gen looking titles out there so BRING IT ON. |
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Sep 2021 23:23 Post subject: |
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A single player, team based RPG doesn't need strict balance. Worrks completely fine with some builds being OP, some less so. You have 6+ characters to manage, after all.
This game is fine. I played it in the earlies closed beta phase, and it is VASTLY improved. I finished Kingmaker right when it launched, and this is a way, way more polished.
Comes highly recommended.
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Sep 2021 01:00 Post subject: |
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Not sure if I'm hitting bugs yet, my party is double corrupted on the world map and I don't know why or how to remove it. Definately find the worldmap side of the game meh (same with kingmaker), why bother with these additional systems? just unnecessary minigame busy work no one wants *shrug..
On monster AI, its not bad so far presuming these are simple monsters hitting with debuffs. I've not seen a lot of casting from the AI.
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Sep 2021 01:52 Post subject: |
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I think the corruption is one good way to curb resting after every encounter. It's the problem with pretty much every D&D RPG so far; how do you prevent players from just resting up for every fight? BG1 & 2 failed, NWN failed ( horribly ), ToEE failed, Solasta failed, Kingmaker failed, BG3 failed... WOTR is the first game where there's an actual incentive to try to go as far as possible on one rest.
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Sep 2021 02:39 Post subject: |
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Game looks nice, but 2 of my characters went under the map after I opened the door to the 1st dungeon (maze). Will wait 6 Months for the enhanced edition
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Sep 2021 06:20 Post subject: |
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| Divvy wrote: | | I think the corruption is one good way to curb resting after every encounter. It's the problem with pretty much every D&D RPG so far; how do you prevent players from just resting up for every fight? BG1 & 2 failed, NWN failed ( horribly ), ToEE failed, Solasta failed, Kingmaker failed, BG3 failed... WOTR is the first game where there's an actual incentive to try to go as far as possible on one rest. |
Hmm.. I only rest when fatigued, the world map forces you to rest every 10 seconds. I dont know how to avoid this.. am i supposed to fight fatigued and encumbered?
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Sep 2021 10:03 Post subject: |
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| AmpegV4 wrote: | | Hmm.. I only rest when fatigued, the world map forces you to rest every 10 seconds. I dont know how to avoid this.. am i supposed to fight fatigued and encumbered? |
If it is following pathfinder rules: Being encumbered is bad while traveling long distances. It slows you down, wears you out faster. And any forced march/hustle is auto fatigue state after the first hour. (And if its using the same rules. One encumbered character slows everyone down on distance over a day. You move as a group at the speed of the slowest member..otherwise you would leave him 10 miles behind you over a day).
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/movement/
| Divvy wrote: | | I think the corruption is one good way to curb resting after every encounter. WOTR is the first game where there's an actual incentive to try to go as far as possible on one rest. |
Wait..its based on pathfinder and can you rest more than once a day in it? Pathfinder doesn't have have short rests to reset skills and to heal. It's a single long rest at night.
(scroll down to 'Rest")
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary/
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Sep 2021 16:38 Post subject: |
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It's following the rules, since the game just counts the time the characters wait around to be able to rest again. So if you rest, and then rest again right after, the second rest takes 24h including waiting around for 16. Practically it doesn't matter much since you can rest in an enemy fortress and at most there's a little encounter if you get really unlucky with the rolls. But the corruption mechanic does ensure you don't spam rest to get easier fights.
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Sep 2021 17:05 Post subject: |
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That seems like a lazy way to do it for the devs.
If there is enemies in the dungeon/fortress/cave/whatever resting would be nearly impossible.
Maybe it's the tabletop GM in me talking here. Did no one hear you fighting, or stumble on all the dead bodies you left laying around up to the point you got to for 8 hours?
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Sep 2021 17:49 Post subject: |
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The whole resting for spells thing in dnd and pathfinder kinda sucks anyway in cRPG.
Yes you should reserve spells. But you don't have a clue what the game is gonna throw at you, so reserve for what? In the end i always tend to underuse spells and only use them in desperation, but that's not a lot of fun. I just wanna throw spells with my mage.
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W123
Posts: 2512
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Sep 2021 20:30 Post subject: |
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Enabled that option to heal ability damage and negative effects on rest.. every freakin battle it's something else you get debuffed with and have to spend time curing.
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Sep 2021 20:50 Post subject: |
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Id turn that on too @W123
Thats default behavior in Pathfinder. if its an option, no idea why it would be optional. Unless you mean remove ALL ability damage on rest.
RAW (rules as written) is one ability damage point per score per rest.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Sep 2021 21:03 Post subject: |
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Pillars of Eternity 2 did "resting" best from what I recall, largely by eliminating the need to do it often.
While characters had skills they could use per rest/day, most of your go to skills during the fight were refreshed on a "per fight" basis - largely un-gimping spell-casters and allowing you to play your class the way it was meant to be played during most fights - with no need to have advanced knowledge of what big fight was coming up next in order to "save" your spells/skills for something that may never come or you've already passed.
The fact that developers love to penalize spell-casters by all but requiring advanced knowledge of the fights that will be coming up in a given area is, at best, downright fucking stupid.
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W123
Posts: 2512
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Sep 2021 21:13 Post subject: |
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| DXWarlock wrote: | Id turn that on too @W123
Thats default behavior in Pathfinder. if its an option, no idea why it would be optional. Unless you mean remove ALL ability damage on rest.
RAW (rules as written) is one ability damage point per score per rest. |
No it heals all ability damage, as selected. Made the game a lot better at least for me.
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Sep 2021 21:17 Post subject: |
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Yea, It works well in tabletop (making people work together and less wreckless) not sure it translates well to cRPG.
Tabletop is a LOT slower paced, and more Roleplay/fluff/other situations where 1 per day doesnt feel as 'for fucks sake..I ALWAYS have it". And can handwave "in town montage" narrative of staying in town for 4 days doing skill rolls of gather info/talk to locals, eat a decent meal and decent bed to rest up and heal.
For example game I'm running its taken nearly a year (real time) for players to reach level 10ish, but we are also on the slowpace XP chart. But even not using it 6 months for level 10 would be considered reasonably fast/average.
I personally dont think they can ever make a cRPG based on pen and paper RPG that works well. Since pen and paper is free form roleplay with combat in-between as the 'action' (Unless you run your pen and paper as hack and slash or dungeon crawls only), where cRPG is combat focused with dialog boxes to simulate a linear story.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Sep 2021 00:09 Post subject: |
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moan moan moan moan fuckin moan.
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