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 Posted: Mon, 31st Jul 2006 05:33 Post subject: |
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I was going to say the same as Parallax_. Polygons DO NOT make the game look more realistic.
That is the problem of many people, they want a high poly count and don't even care about textures when textures make a game (excluding the fun factor) and not polygons.
Modelling hair for the sake of realism is not even close to a reason we might overview to deliberately intend on discussing the possibility to model hair simply for the fact that realism will not be reached with modelled hair.
Please also note that all this while I have been talking about next-gen games. Current-gen games on PS2 have something like a 256px texture while xbox360 (as close to next-gen as we currently can) supports 2048.
Also, I must mention that your explanation to my question "Why make it look realistic when people use games to escape reality?" and your explanation was something like: "because if a game is real they will learn and go outside". I simply respond: what kind of explanation is that?? I am a gamer, I am a game designer yet I don't need a game to look realistic for me to understand to go out and if for you that would be the case well you must be thinking the majority of people are really stupid. Who the hell needs to look at a modelled sun to suddenly realize that a sun looks like that in real life?
Also, The Matrix or any other movie that uses CGI we ALL know it's CGI yet we go along with it unless they try and make it look too realistic then we just find it weird and disengage from the movie.
Finally, going fully realistic in a game, graphic wise would mean you would need to go extremely realistic animation wise and AI wise because with realistic graphics and bad AI your game is just going to suck.
In a close future, we will see better animation, textures and physics along with improving AI. In a long term future, I hope we will see more freedom and openness. I doubt we will see VR simply for the growing Wii Syndrom; If it demands an effort we won't do it. Sometimes people just feel like playing a game without thinking nor moving nor whatever, just play the damn game and with the Wii you will be somehow forced to move around and whatnot and VR will create the same effect, if you feel like simply tapping your keyboard in a laid back and relaxed mood, VR will keep you from it.
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| Posted: Mon, 31st Jul 2006 09:49 Post subject: |
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| Malveous wrote: | | Also, I must mention that your explanation to my question "Why make it look realistic when people use games to escape reality?" and your explanation was something like: "because if a game is real they will learn and go outside". I simply respond: what kind of explanation is that?? I am a gamer, I am a game designer yet I don't need a game to look realistic for me to understand to go out and if for you that would be the case well you must be thinking the majority of people are really stupid. Who the hell needs to look at a modelled sun to suddenly realize that a sun looks like that in real life?. |
Well i guess we should make pool and ask like 100 people do they need game that look like real life and then we can discuss this more.
| Malveous wrote: | | Sometimes people just feel like playing a game without thinking nor moving nor whatever, just play the damn game and with the Wii you will be somehow forced to move around and whatnot and VR will create the same effect, if you feel like simply tapping your keyboard in a laid back and relaxed mood, VR will keep you from it. |
No one force them to go VR, they can just install tetris or whatever they want there is billion of games out today, and to date we get to VR there will be much more. Besides there can be thing like with today's directx 9 games, you can switch graphics to cartoon mode, and other modes e.g. in far cry so it look like XIII (game), guess same goes for realistic games, if user like them to look like cartoon, (like nowdays games) they can switch graphics or install older or different game, guess (shitty) game development wont stop with come of ultrarealistic games.
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| Posted: Mon, 31st Jul 2006 09:52 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Malveous wrote:
Sometimes people just feel like playing a game without thinking nor moving nor whatever, just play the damn game and with the Wii you will be somehow forced to move around and whatnot and VR will create the same effect, if you feel like simply tapping your keyboard in a laid back and relaxed mood, VR will keep you from it.
No one force them to go VR, they can just install tetris or whatever they want there is billion of games out today, and to date we get to VR there will be much more. Besides there can be thing like with today's directx 9 games, you can switch graphics to cartoon mode, and other modes e.g. in far cry so it look like XIII (game), guess same goes for realistic games, if user like them to look like cartoon, (like nowdays games) they can switch graphics or install older or different game, guess (shitty) game development wont stop with come of ultrarealistic games. |
I think you have no clue what VR is.
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Parallax_
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| Posted: Mon, 31st Jul 2006 10:12 Post subject: |
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You are fighting a lost cause MikiMouse, I don't get why you bother continue arguing.
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| Posted: Mon, 31st Jul 2006 10:15 Post subject: |
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I honestly don't know what he is really about and am simply stating my opinion as well as what I know.
That being said, I don't see the point in me writing more within this thread unless something constructive is brought up again.
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| Posted: Mon, 31st Jul 2006 22:50 Post subject: |
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Thats because you are retards, vr is virtual reality what is it then?
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IcedFreon
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| Posted: Tue, 1st Aug 2006 10:13 Post subject: |
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IcedFreon
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| Posted: Tue, 1st Aug 2006 10:15 Post subject: |
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that doesnt help you speaking fucked up now does it?
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Parallax_
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| Posted: Tue, 1st Aug 2006 10:29 Post subject: |
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Moderators, please lock this topic, delete the last 4 replies (+mine), or ban MikiMouse.
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Rudolph
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SuTuRa
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| Posted: Tue, 1st Aug 2006 15:36 Post subject: |
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This topic is great, and Malveous gave us a nice contribution to better understand the game developing industry. MikiMouse is just ruining everything... We should welcome contributions like Malveous. They don´t appear everyday.
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| Posted: Tue, 1st Aug 2006 16:17 Post subject: |
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Yes honestly thanks Malveous for explaining all those things, even though its kinda arkward to have game designer on these boards 
But I do have a question, don't know if it has been answered yet but how good will the physics in games get? I think that's even more important than everything else gfx wise because you are able to do so many things.
I mean just look at the source engine or how it's used in M&M Dark Messiah (at least I think that's source). It will be so awesome when you can really interact with every object in a game, but will that be possible? Simply due to the amount of power a computer will need to calculate all that.
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| Posted: Tue, 1st Aug 2006 22:20 Post subject: |
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there are great physics in Penumbra witch is a game developed by 2 students (google for it).. i think it's the best physics i've seen in a game.. it's preety realistic.. physics is not hard to integrate into a game... these days... AI is what we need ..
[url=http://www.tvcafe.ro/lg/1837 ]Bet you don't have the guts to click here!![/url]
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| Posted: Tue, 1st Aug 2006 23:03 Post subject: |
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I really doubt that Malveous is a game developer, what is he doing in a pirate site anyways? If he really is one, he must be a designer of that small flash games lol.
But seriously, like I posted before on this thread, polygons are never enough. Malveous says 500000 polys/frame are great, but it isnt. Just look at the most amazing game in development today graphically, Crysis.
While it is great the level of realism that Crytek reached, its ways off of real. The environments are nowhere near acceptable for people wanting something, if not movie quality like I said before, at least CG GAME quality, or pre-rendered quality that you see in some adventure games, like Syberia (games 2.5D, polygonal characters and environments pre-rendered).
Normal mapping, etc is good for todays hardware. But it is all fake. The edges of characters of a X360 games are all blocky, environments are lifeless, simply there isnt complex geometry. We dont see thousands of highly detailed people or objects on-screen at once. Where are the curved objects?. See the game Mass Effect. Characters are reasonably good (for the hardware we have today), but the environments are EXTREMELY WEAK and empty.
Everything is simple and VERY lifeless, far from real. And ALL X380, PS3, or next gen PC games in development are this way: characters look good (for what we have today in terms of hardware), faked by normal-mapping, high resolution textures, etc... But the rest is so primitive, so crappy, so ridiculously blocky that I dont have motivation for play a 3D game.
So what do we need for a real good looking game? 80 million polygons per frame at least, subdivision surfaces and higher order surfaces (for the curved objects or characters), real displacement mapping (for the small details in the game), global ilumination and ray-tracing (realistic lightning), and much better physics, animations and ai.
We will reach this level of detail in 10 years, at least I am hoping.
slk
Last edited by slk_forever on Tue, 1st Aug 2006 23:09; edited 1 time in total
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IcedFreon
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| Posted: Tue, 1st Aug 2006 23:07 Post subject: |
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theres plenty of ppl who buy games here. and thisisnt a pirate site at all...its just one of the many places that let you know whts out there. if it was a pirate site you'd be able to dl stuff.
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| Posted: Tue, 1st Aug 2006 23:30 Post subject: |
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slk_forever, you are off by a few hundred yards when it comes to developers here on NFOrce.
I know I will surprise a few people here but there is a giant gap in between developers and publishers. Publishers hate piracy. Publishers are the MPIAA and RIAA of gaming.
As to developers (like me) we honestly don't give a crap. I hate copy protection and all its problems related to it and am very glad my bosses decided to get rid of Starforce for their games (this should give you a hint of where I work). If a game gets cracked and released early do you think I will not get paid, I'll get bonuses if the rumors and the leaked releases push the sales. This is how the industry works, publishers whine about piracy to officially look good while we all know it helps sell our games. The only thing us developers don't really like is when someone leaks too much information concerning an upcoming game because this kind of spoils the hype.
So, to all who think game developers are anti-piracy people; get your head out of your ass because that is wrong. Most don't care if its pirated or not, some like me entirely support it but VERY FEW are against it.
When Half-Life 2 complained some dude "stole their code" and they delayed the game supposedly for that, EVERYONE heard about the theft thus giving a direct consequence; EVERYONE heard about Half-Life 2. What was the cost of that instant popularity? zero.
Code is instantly backed up at EA, VALVe and UBI and so are textures and models so if they had a backup why would they delay the game if someone stole the code they had backed up? Poor excuse for a delay yet it worked pretty well and HL2 got the GoTY.
Klinge, thank you for the compliment and as explained above, developers are just like everyone else.
Also, regarding your question, I did talk about the physics in my first or second post since it is THE next-gen thing. Animations and Physics then comes Textures, Lighting and Post-Processing Effects.
Also, Dark Messiah is indeed built on Source. This game will be amazing for its vertical freedom. It is a very linear game yet it is with the physics and your class ability that the game takes shape. Oblivion had a good physics engine yet the team did not push the physics features so much and Dark Messiah is doing the exact opposite.
Physics have been a big limitation for a while due to the multiplayer aspect. When a player moves an object in the world, the engine has to calculate its position and physics property for everyone thus giving high peaks on servers and that is why physics were rarely used in multiplayer. However, the newer build of Source is bringing a revolution to that matter.
slk_forever, I have proven my point about the amount of polygons. It won't make a difference. With real displacement mapping (evolution of Parallax Mapping) coming you won't need to get more polys. Add that and AA and it's even better than your FF.
Adventure Games like Syberia are indeed very well detailed yet you see its lack of vitality clearly when playing. Realism, as you so seem to be hooked on will not be achieved with more polygons but with better animations, textures, physics and lighting oh and of course, post-processing such as Motion Blur, Depth of Field and others...
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| Posted: Wed, 2nd Aug 2006 11:30 Post subject: |
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| IcedFreon wrote: | | theres plenty of ppl who buy games here. and thisisnt a pirate site at all...its just one of the many places that let you know whts out there. if it was a pirate site you'd be able to dl stuff. |
Only reason they dont let people download and moderate forum for this things is they they want it to be legal, cuz giving nfo,s does not break law i guess, if they remove cd-key's from them as they do.
Its not hard to find releases from this site in P2P networks or else if you have at least some degree of skill, and saying its not pirate site is lie to yourself retard.
If u wanna know excuse for HL2 delay was that they stolen source code not textures, and they have not deleted it on valve side they just downloaded it, walve claim they must rewrite source code, cuz those who stolen source could write cheats for online games that use source engline for example or whatever, they never told they lost some of game data and now must rebuild it again.
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IcedFreon
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| Posted: Wed, 2nd Aug 2006 13:04 Post subject: |
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rofl p2p networks....and im the retard.......so if i make a site with nothing but nfo's its automatically a pirate site? lol shut up, its just simply a site giving you information. so stop jumping off topic in this thread with your broken english bullshit, and say something in pm if you cant help yourself from being an ass.
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| Posted: Wed, 2nd Aug 2006 13:14 Post subject: |
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| Malveous wrote: | | I hate copy protection and all its problems related to it and am very glad my bosses decided to get rid of Starforce for their games (this should give you a hint of where I work). |
You work at Nintendo. ?
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| Posted: Wed, 2nd Aug 2006 13:19 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Wed, 2nd Aug 2006 14:41 Post subject: |
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| IcedFreon wrote: | | rofl p2p networks....and im the retard.......so if i make a site with nothing but nfo's its automatically a pirate site? lol shut up, its just simply a site giving you information. so stop jumping off topic in this thread with your broken english bullshit, and say something in pm if you cant help yourself from being an ass. |
Wtf what pm's? Can you show screenshot of my PM, you lying peace of shit.
I just suggested easyest way everyone can use to download warez (P2P) not all can use private pirate ftp's and etc, if you know better way for public to get warez tell me, unless that you are retard.
Back to topic, i dont care whare guy works, all he tells is false anyway so why listen to him whoever he is, even if hes game dev what exactly he do modeling maps or textures or scripts, i dont know but his knoweledge of subject seems superficial.
Last edited by MikiMouse on Wed, 2nd Aug 2006 14:44; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Wed, 2nd Aug 2006 14:41 Post subject: |
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Malveous thx for the physics explanation and your right, when I think about it most programmers that I know just want their products to get to a wide range of people. They do it so everyone has something from it and can enjoy or utilize the programs. The publishers are those greedy bas*ards that want to squeeze the last dime out of us.
In my eyes this site is only a community that discusses game releases and what comes with them like copy protection etc. it's not really a pirate site, because you do not get software from here directly. People may *hint* you where you can get it but you can't get it here so no go for pirate site.
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IcedFreon
Posts: 1035
Location: THE PILLOW FORT OF ISOLATION
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| Posted: Wed, 2nd Aug 2006 14:49 Post subject: |
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| MikiMouse wrote: | | IcedFreon wrote: | | rofl p2p networks....and im the retard.......so if i make a site with nothing but nfo's its automatically a pirate site? lol shut up, its just simply a site giving you information. so stop jumping off topic in this thread with your broken english bullshit, and say something in pm if you cant help yourself from being an ass. |
Wtf what pm's? Can you show screenshot of my PM, you lying peace of shit.
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jesus man are you that retarded? I SAID IF YOU CANT HELP YOURSELF FROM BEING AN ASS IN THE FORUM THEN TAKE IT TO PM. not only can he not write english but he cant read it either......and peace cant lie btw
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Brisk
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poullou
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| Posted: Wed, 2nd Aug 2006 16:18 Post subject: |
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| Malveous wrote: | slk_forever, you are off by a few hundred yards when it comes to developers here on NFOrce.
I know I will surprise a few people here but there is a giant gap in between developers and publishers. Publishers hate piracy. Publishers are the MPIAA and RIAA of gaming.
As to developers (like me) we honestly don't give a crap. I hate copy protection and all its problems related to it and am very glad my bosses decided to get rid of Starforce for their games (this should give you a hint of where I work). If a game gets cracked and released early do you think I will not get paid, I'll get bonuses if the rumors and the leaked releases push the sales. This is how the industry works, publishers whine about piracy to officially look good while we all know it helps sell our games. The only thing us developers don't really like is when someone leaks too much information concerning an upcoming game because this kind of spoils the hype.
So, to all who think game developers are anti-piracy people; get your head out of your ass because that is wrong. Most don't care if its pirated or not, some like me entirely support it but VERY FEW are against it.
When Half-Life 2 complained some dude "stole their code" and they delayed the game supposedly for that, EVERYONE heard about the theft thus giving a direct consequence; EVERYONE heard about Half-Life 2. What was the cost of that instant popularity? zero.
Code is instantly backed up at EA, VALVe and UBI and so are textures and models so if they had a backup why would they delay the game if someone stole the code they had backed up? Poor excuse for a delay yet it worked pretty well and HL2 got the GoTY.
Klinge, thank you for the compliment and as explained above, developers are just like everyone else.
Also, regarding your question, I did talk about the physics in my first or second post since it is THE next-gen thing. Animations and Physics then comes Textures, Lighting and Post-Processing Effects.
Also, Dark Messiah is indeed built on Source. This game will be amazing for its vertical freedom. It is a very linear game yet it is with the physics and your class ability that the game takes shape. Oblivion had a good physics engine yet the team did not push the physics features so much and Dark Messiah is doing the exact opposite.
Physics have been a big limitation for a while due to the multiplayer aspect. When a player moves an object in the world, the engine has to calculate its position and physics property for everyone thus giving high peaks on servers and that is why physics were rarely used in multiplayer. However, the newer build of Source is bringing a revolution to that matter.
slk_forever, I have proven my point about the amount of polygons. It won't make a difference. With real displacement mapping (evolution of Parallax Mapping) coming you won't need to get more polys. Add that and AA and it's even better than your FF.
Adventure Games like Syberia are indeed very well detailed yet you see its lack of vitality clearly when playing. Realism, as you so seem to be hooked on will not be achieved with more polygons but with better animations, textures, physics and lighting oh and of course, post-processing such as Motion Blur, Depth of Field and others... |
Interesting and very informative. I remember the times when I used to argue whether piracy for games was teh bad thing for a game. I knew it wasn't and more over when you look at today's games you barely find that many without the online multiplayer factor. Real player>AI. Real players-->online. Online=money, no cd key generators.
I also want to ask you which in your opinion is the best engine in respect to technology adaptation, modularity, performance and current specs? ...and maybe which is better to work with(as a developer)
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poullou
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