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 Posted: Mon, 7th May 2007 17:23 Post subject: |
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I agree with those points, but the shits sure bricked plenty of flashed consoles in the last update with the 'E66'.
additionally, they may not brick the machines, but they could well prevent backups loading - ie dirty disc error or similar.
Last edited by gibster on Mon, 7th May 2007 17:26; edited 1 time in total
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Parallax_
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Mon, 7th May 2007 17:25 Post subject: |
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Technically nothing was bricked 
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| Posted: Mon, 7th May 2007 17:44 Post subject: |
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| gibster wrote: |
additionally, they may not brick the machines, but they could well prevent backups loading - ie dirty disc error or similar. |
So the backup won't load....
If you've downloaded 7 games you've still saved money dude. The main point is that as long as MS are unaware it's not a potentially irreversible situation.
Think it's really easy to let speculation run away with itself to be honest. If you are that paranoid don't upgrade till there is definite information about the potential consequences.
And if you have to play on live. Buy a new 360 and the games you like to play online.
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| Posted: Mon, 7th May 2007 19:09 Post subject: |
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| LanceBullet wrote: | No, but they are only interested in stopping you using live, because it would be illegal for them to brick your machine.
So if you are intending to play backups, you may as well upgrade the dashboard anyway, because without the network connection, your 360 may know you are playing backups, but the bastard can't tell Bill.
Worst case for an unconnected machine, is for the backup to not load, because the system claims you are trying to use a backup, but then at least you know without being banned from anything. |
actually you're wrong about the legality of "bricking the console". When you first start using the 360 console you agree to the TOS which states that if you mod the console microsoft has no liability if the console fails to function in a proper fashion. All microsoft has to say is that the current update isnt comptible with consoles that have modded firmware. By breaking the TOS..which you agreed to microsoft could easily hold this up in court.
Now wether microsoft would go this far remains to be seen since at this stage in the game it would generate alot of negative publicity
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| Posted: Mon, 7th May 2007 19:12 Post subject: |
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Fair enough. But any legal action would be a precedent, certainly not a black and white issue.
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| Posted: Mon, 7th May 2007 19:17 Post subject: |
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Also, if it was a viable option for MS, they would have done it with the original XBOX.
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| Posted: Mon, 7th May 2007 20:27 Post subject: |
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they already did this with the xbox360 forcing the 360 to display error E66 on some consoles where the drive model is locked to the console. Hence why there are firmware revisions which make the dirve report as different drives. The console is not bricked permanently but before c4e updated the firmware reverting back to the original fw/drive was the fix for this. Now maybe if microsoft say upgraded the dash so if a modified firmware was deected it blew a chip rendering the console useless and you might have a chance claiming destruction of property.
But in all actuality microsoft could counterclaim it has a obligation to protect intellectual property rights of companies that buy liscence to develop for the console. Its not like you can just go into court and say hey microsoft made my console not work anymore because i modified a part of the hardware. You have a right to do what you want with what you buy, hell you could turn it into a toaster if you wish. But microsoft has the right not to support modified consoles with its updates. When you download the update and agree to the TOS as far as a court is concerned you willingly modified ur console, willingly downloaded the update (this update is not automatic it asks you if you want to update they dont force it upon you) and voided any warranty you agreed to.
Now you can say yes BUT in my country you can legally backup any disk for "archival" purposes. No one is stopping you from backing up the disk. You can eaasily do this. Thats your right. But microsofts hardware from the factory doesnt support the playing of backups on their console, and they have no legal obligation to do so either. In order to do this you have to void the warranty and breach the TOS you agreed upon making the liability yours if in future any updates you willingly install dont work. Read the TOS properly its legally binding and you'd probably end up owing alot of money to microsoft in legal fees if you took this to court
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Parallax_
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Mon, 7th May 2007 20:34 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Mon, 7th May 2007 20:53 Post subject: |
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| dvsone wrote: | they already did this with the xbox360 forcing the 360 to display error E66 on some consoles where the drive model is locked to the console. Hence why there are firmware revisions which make the dirve report as different drives. The console is not bricked permanently but before c4e updated the firmware reverting back to the original fw/drive was the fix for this. Now maybe if microsoft say upgraded the dash so if a modified firmware was deected it blew a chip rendering the console useless and you might have a chance claiming destruction of property.
But in all actuality microsoft could counterclaim it has a obligation to protect intellectual property rights of companies that buy liscence to develop for the console. Its not like you can just go into court and say hey microsoft made my console not work anymore because i modified a part of the hardware. You have a right to do what you want with what you buy, hell you could turn it into a toaster if you wish. But microsoft has the right not to support modified consoles with its updates. When you download the update and agree to the TOS as far as a court is concerned you willingly modified ur console, willingly downloaded the update (this update is not automatic it asks you if you want to update they dont force it upon you) and voided any warranty you agreed to.
Now you can say yes BUT in my country you can legally backup any disk for "archival" purposes. No one is stopping you from backing up the disk. You can eaasily do this. Thats your right. But microsofts hardware from the factory doesnt support the playing of backups on their console, and they have no legal obligation to do so either. In order to do this you have to void the warranty and breach the TOS you agreed upon making the liability yours if in future any updates you willingly install dont work. Read the TOS properly its legally binding and you'd probably end up owing alot of money to microsoft in legal fees if you took this to court |
But, they banned original XBOXes from live on the basis of being chipped, so what's the diference in situation here? why not brick the xbox if they were legally entitled to do so?
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| Posted: Mon, 7th May 2007 21:18 Post subject: |
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| LanceBullet wrote: |
But, they banned original XBOXes from live on the basis of being chipped, so what's the diference in situation here? why not brick the xbox if they were legally entitled to do so? |
I think the reason this time - and as I said earlier - is that now there is a revnue stream to be had from Live. On the old xbox you could play copies and give MS no further cash. But with XBLA, add-ons, expansions etc, there is still cash to be had. I know I buy a few xbla games plus expansions for games I have.
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| Posted: Mon, 7th May 2007 21:27 Post subject: |
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So their business model is, oh well may as well make the odd $10 rather than nothing. Lets not force all players to pay $40 * however many games a player will buy?
If you were right dude they wouldn't do anything to counter the modding scene at all. Taking half measures just implies that they aren't very good, not that they have accepted that the Live market stream is enough.
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Nettwerk
Posts: 428
Location: Antarctica
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| Posted: Mon, 7th May 2007 21:37 Post subject: |
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no with the kernel hacked you could change files in the game to cheat.
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| Posted: Mon, 7th May 2007 22:00 Post subject: |
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Don't forget that as of right now Microsoft is selling more 360's because of the fact that you can play backups on it. It can very well be that they are holding back any measures to prevent playing backups until they have a clear margin over the competition. I also think that they would never intend to brick any flashed 360 on purpose with an update, they sure would prefer a solution which simply prevents people from playing backups.
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| Posted: Mon, 7th May 2007 22:52 Post subject: |
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i dont think they will intentionally brick peoples 360's, most likely just stop them from playing backups. im sure theyve weighed up th pro's and cons, a big con would be accidentally bricking a lot of unmodified consoles.
The night is dark and the road is long. Come on dead men, return to your homes.
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| Posted: Mon, 7th May 2007 22:53 Post subject: |
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I think right now, that numbers of machines sold and people connected to Live is something MS want in order to have Kudos over Sony. I know a lot of people wouldn't buy many of the games they have as copies.
And just because the odd game costs $40, doesn't mean it's all profit. I woulnd't spend much more money with MS right now if I was forced to buy only originals - and as with the old PSone, friends of mine wouldn't buy games at all. They aren't serious gamers and see games prices a s a rip off.
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| Posted: Tue, 8th May 2007 00:03 Post subject: |
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40$? in EU they cost 59 euro which is pretty much fuked up if u ask me
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| Posted: Tue, 8th May 2007 00:14 Post subject: |
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My take on it is, noone actually knows wtf is gonni happen. All this "banning people" isn't going to happen. They NEED to detect if a copy is in, but...
Does your stereo do that when you backed up and album?
That technology would be worth a mint?
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| Posted: Tue, 8th May 2007 00:19 Post subject: |
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| chiz wrote: | | They NEED to detect if a copy is in, but... |
Why do you think Xtreme 5.3 got released? Because they CAN detect if theres a backup using Disc-Jitter detection. They might not use that method however, But they could detect a backup if they wanted to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter
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| Posted: Tue, 8th May 2007 03:52 Post subject: |
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| LanceBullet wrote: | | dvsone wrote: | they already did this with the xbox360 forcing the 360 to display error E66 on some consoles where the drive model is locked to the console. Hence why there are firmware revisions which make the dirve report as different drives. The console is not bricked permanently but before c4e updated the firmware reverting back to the original fw/drive was the fix for this. Now maybe if microsoft say upgraded the dash so if a modified firmware was deected it blew a chip rendering the console useless and you might have a chance claiming destruction of property.
But in all actuality microsoft could counterclaim it has a obligation to protect intellectual property rights of companies that buy liscence to develop for the console. Its not like you can just go into court and say hey microsoft made my console not work anymore because i modified a part of the hardware. You have a right to do what you want with what you buy, hell you could turn it into a toaster if you wish. But microsoft has the right not to support modified consoles with its updates. When you download the update and agree to the TOS as far as a court is concerned you willingly modified ur console, willingly downloaded the update (this update is not automatic it asks you if you want to update they dont force it upon you) and voided any warranty you agreed to.
Now you can say yes BUT in my country you can legally backup any disk for "archival" purposes. No one is stopping you from backing up the disk. You can eaasily do this. Thats your right. But microsofts hardware from the factory doesnt support the playing of backups on their console, and they have no legal obligation to do so either. In order to do this you have to void the warranty and breach the TOS you agreed upon making the liability yours if in future any updates you willingly install dont work. Read the TOS properly its legally binding and you'd probably end up owing alot of money to microsoft in legal fees if you took this to court |
But, they banned original XBOXes from live on the basis of being chipped, so what's the diference in situation here? why not brick the xbox if they were legally entitled to do so? |
well my guess would be apart from obvious negative press, they most likley just want to prevent backups working making you buy games. They make a revnue off lisencing you go around bricking people consoles to the point where they dont work or cannot be returned to an unmodified state (plus microsoft refuse to fix modified consoles) and there's less chance these people are going to buy another console, or games for that matter. But however small the impact of the last major update was they did try something and it did render the console (for some) unusable (but not unfixable) for a small amount of time. Never say never right?
But saying they wont do it because you think the law would protect your rights and not theirs is a bit naive. EULA, and TOS's can be over ridden by territorial laws but only if the standard of service/hardware provided does not meet the standard practices of that country and in most cases you're entitled to buy something and have it work the way its intended to, thats your consumor rights. You modify something beyond its intended specification you break the agreement and basically give up your rights.
I notice you're from the UK its actually illegal in the UK now to backup anything that has copy protection, that includes dvd movies and games. Uk changed their laws in umm 2003 to fall in line with the European Union Copyright Directive, which is basically the EU version of the DMCA.
Ive mentioned before on here i work in at a big pressing plant in NA. I know a little bit about the laws of copying and backing up cds / dvds (i'm not a lawyer but ive had to deal with customers who want things they "beleive to own the copyright to" reproduced so in my job id get charged with finding out if the required release forms are done and a whole other bunch of bullshit, when it comes to anything copyrighted trust me its all paper work and paying people, obtaining permission..obtaining a liscence) but for any country under such laws you cant use fair use as an argument. It certainly applies to the UK circumventing copy protection to make a backups is illegal. If there's no copy protection its fair game as long as you own the original.
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| Posted: Tue, 8th May 2007 04:30 Post subject: |
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| chiz wrote: | | Does your stereo do that when you backed up and album? |
lol it's like comparing propeller with jet engine, come on it's more complicated now
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| Posted: Tue, 8th May 2007 08:33 Post subject: |
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This is one more example of a multi-national company spending hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions to develop this fantastic tool/copy protection/firmware/you name it/ that is finally going to stop game/movie/software/you name it/ piracy and like each time people are freaking out, guess what it's going to happen and in two weeks time a random forum will tell you download this file, do this, do that and you're fine and things will be back to normal.
As long as multi-national company won't understand that everything they do can and WILL be undone, as long as they continue investing in this they won't fix the problem which is much more complicated than just piracy.
On the other hand it pisses me off to see all those people who think it’s a given right to download and play backups, please stop hiding behind those lame arguments that I've been hearing for ten years, its too expensive, I'm a poor student without money, I pay only for good games, please… downloading warez, hacking your console are risks, you have to deal with the consequences, so if you can't play online any longer or if you 360 gets bricked at least have the decency to accept it without crying about it.
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| Posted: Tue, 8th May 2007 09:28 Post subject: |
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Agree with Evil. I'm a hypocrite though, I don't think its right to download warez, but I do it anyway. I'm a student, albeit not a poor one, so I could afford to buy my games and movies. I haven't even flashed my 360 and I for one will have no complaints if MS starts banning back-ups.
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| Posted: Tue, 8th May 2007 10:31 Post subject: |
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| [EviL] wrote: | This is one more example of a multi-national company spending hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions to develop this fantastic tool/copy protection/firmware/you name it/ that is finally going to stop game/movie/software/you name it/ piracy and like each time people are freaking out, guess what it's going to happen and in two weeks time a random forum will tell you download this file, do this, do that and you're fine and things will be back to normal.
As long as multi-national company won't understand that everything they do can and WILL be undone, as long as they continue investing in this they won't fix the problem which is much more complicated than just piracy.
On the other hand it pisses me off to see all those people who think it’s a given right to download and play backups, please stop hiding behind those lame arguments that I've been hearing for ten years, its too expensive, I'm a poor student without money, I pay only for good games, please… downloading warez, hacking your console are risks, you have to deal with the consequences, so if you can't play online any longer or if you 360 gets bricked at least have the decency to accept it without crying about it. |
evil they understand this fully. But lisence payers want somethign done to protect their IP now if microsoft just says hey you know what theyve won fuck it. How many of these lisences you think are getting renewed when they reach the end? It's good business to go where the $$ is right?
People blame microsoft but theyre only part of the problem. Yea the 360 has alot of stupid DRM issues. But console without 3rd party devs is useless. Look at the original xbox. As soon as MS announced no more 1st party develpment, 3rd party devs jumped ship as fast as they could. Devs and content proividers first order of business is how will you protect our IP? period frr microsft to have a successful buisness they have to answer tat question...convincingly
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| Posted: Tue, 8th May 2007 10:40 Post subject: |
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live update delayed for 24hours says major nelson, so not update till wednesday now.
maybe working on hacking the hack, lol
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| Posted: Tue, 8th May 2007 10:43 Post subject: |
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| dvsone wrote: |
well my guess would be apart from obvious negative press, they most likley just want to prevent backups working making you buy games. They make a revnue off lisencing you go around bricking people consoles to the point where they dont work or cannot be returned to an unmodified state (plus microsoft refuse to fix modified consoles) and there's less chance these people are going to buy another console, or games for that matter. But however small the impact of the last major update was they did try something and it did render the console (for some) unusable (but not unfixable) for a small amount of time. Never say never right?
But saying they wont do it because you think the law would protect your rights and not theirs is a bit naive. EULA, and TOS's can be over ridden by territorial laws but only if the standard of service/hardware provided does not meet the standard practices of that country and in most cases you're entitled to buy something and have it work the way its intended to, thats your consumor rights. You modify something beyond its intended specification you break the agreement and basically give up your rights.
I notice you're from the UK its actually illegal in the UK now to backup anything that has copy protection, that includes dvd movies and games. Uk changed their laws in umm 2003 to fall in line with the European Union Copyright Directive, which is basically the EU version of the DMCA.
Ive mentioned before on here i work in at a big pressing plant in NA. I know a little bit about the laws of copying and backing up cds / dvds (i'm not a lawyer but ive had to deal with customers who want things they "beleive to own the copyright to" reproduced so in my job id get charged with finding out if the required release forms are done and a whole other bunch of bullshit, when it comes to anything copyrighted trust me its all paper work and paying people, obtaining permission..obtaining a liscence) but for any country under such laws you cant use fair use as an argument. It certainly applies to the UK circumventing copy protection to make a backups is illegal. If there's no copy protection its fair game as long as you own the original. |
Fair play, but you're basing your opinion on the law being set in stone. If you take prenuptual agreements as an example of legally binding contracts that are worked around. Even if technically they are entitled to damage someones console based on a contract, it would still represent a precedent and a legal grey area.
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| Posted: Tue, 8th May 2007 10:49 Post subject: |
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| [EviL] wrote: |
On the other hand it pisses me off to see all those people who think it’s a given right to download and play backups, please stop hiding behind those lame arguments that I've been hearing for ten years, its too expensive, I'm a poor student without money, I pay only for good games, please… downloading warez, hacking your console are risks, you have to deal with the consequences, so if you can't play online any longer or if you 360 gets bricked at least have the decency to accept it without crying about it. |
No offense dude, but why are you registered here. It's kind of the point of this sites existence, and I think one prerequisite is not to judge someone you don't personally know anything about.
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| Posted: Tue, 8th May 2007 11:04 Post subject: |
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not only im registered here but im also part of the nforce crew, downloading warez is a risk and not a right, if it's taken away from you deal with it don't cry about it.
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| Posted: Tue, 8th May 2007 11:18 Post subject: |
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I'm not crying about this.
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