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Jenni
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 Posted: Wed, 23rd May 2007 23:37 Post subject: |
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Which goes back to the lack of censorship in my first post.
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Mutantius
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Jenni
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| Posted: Wed, 23rd May 2007 23:45 Post subject: |
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ROFL! You don't to wiki me My Lai Mut. That sack of shit Calley got away with it. Plain and simple.
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Mutantius
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| Posted: Wed, 23rd May 2007 23:49 Post subject: |
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I was merely illustrating a point... To much censorship and you might loose the humanity in the overall effort. If you choose to take censorship as an acceptable way of controlling a full scale war then im concerned.
"Why don't you zip it, Zipfero?" - fraich3
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| Posted: Wed, 23rd May 2007 23:53 Post subject: |
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Well, you simply can't have a full scale war these days without censorship. duh.
Sense Amid Madness, Wit Amidst Folly
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Mutantius
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| Posted: Wed, 23rd May 2007 23:57 Post subject: |
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That we must try to fulfill... This is the 21st century and with that new ways has opened meaning we have a bigger chance in avoiding disasters such as those in Iraq and Vietnam.
"Why don't you zip it, Zipfero?" - fraich3
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| Posted: Wed, 23rd May 2007 23:59 Post subject: |
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I agree with you on that. Our troops are more needed in Congo, or Darfur. But no American interests lie there so...
Sense Amid Madness, Wit Amidst Folly
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Jenni
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 00:03 Post subject: |
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So you think censorship in a war is inhuman. Strange concept. As long as any criminals in those wars be they on either side are punished then I say censor them as much as is possible. It offers the troops more protection that way.
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Mutantius
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 00:09 Post subject: |
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Well how can you be sure if they get punished or not? its essential to let us know how things like genocide and other atrocities has been commited and by that judge those involved in front of international law.
"Why don't you zip it, Zipfero?" - fraich3
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 01:07 Post subject: |
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International law is a fucking joke, and international courts are just chessboards for the big 5, to exercise their foreign policies.
Sense Amid Madness, Wit Amidst Folly
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Mutantius
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 01:09 Post subject: |
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Indeed they are, a great example is the Rwanda genocide. And I must say I dont see it improving until we learn to look beyond our own needs...
"Why don't you zip it, Zipfero?" - fraich3
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 01:16 Post subject: |
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...which we never will, at least not the next century or so.
Sense Amid Madness, Wit Amidst Folly
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Jenni
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 02:09 Post subject: |
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That's humanity. Many good things have come out of war.
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 03:08 Post subject: |
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drug abuse in the field ( talking about vietnam ) was getting worse as the war progressed ( mostly after tet offensive ) , now dont think of it as a guy shooting an M60 while smoking a joint , but on patrol or on watch it was increasingly common .
one vet will say it never happend , one will say it did happen , everyone had different experiences and will tell you different things .
But as oliver stone himself said , you needed to do drugs to stay sane , the ones that didnt do any drugs couldnt cope with it at the end and vented their frustration on the civilian population .
and if the usa didnt pull out in 1973 , they would still be there fighting the grandkids of the vietcong , you cant conquer the heart of the population with bullets .
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Jenni
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 03:23 Post subject: |
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Yes you can. it's been done umpteen times.
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 03:26 Post subject: |
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and if the usa didnt pull out in 1973 , they would still be there fighting the grandkids of the vietcong , you cant conquer the heart of the population with bullets .
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While I again dispute your assertion about drugs, I'll let it slide for now. As for your above quote: yes you can have a successful occupation, it just requires reducing yourself to a base level, and the willingness to slaughter innocents by the hundreds. After you have cowed the population, introduce improvements into their lives, and in a generation they'll be neatly wrapped around your thumb.
Modern warfare requires a brutality scorned upon by modern man, and whoever abides by the modern so-called rules of engagement will face certain defeat against an opponent who is ready to go to the next level of brutality and violence.
Sense Amid Madness, Wit Amidst Folly
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 03:32 Post subject: |
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thing is why "win their hearts" in such a brutal way ? i guess my point was not that its impossible , but that it cant be done with non military operations by the army what i mean is like you said just brutal force on the civilian population .
That war couldnt be won cause not north or south vietnam wanted the US there , right now the "evil communists" are in charge but the vietnamese have it pretty good , and a open market + good relationship with the usa , makes you wonder why they went other side of the world to fight them , but thats what paranoia does to you .
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 03:36 Post subject: |
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They have a good relationship because they have pissed off China and their sugar daddies over at the Soviet Union have their hands too full with domestic problems. Where else to turn but the US, where everything is forgotten at the right price?
Sense Amid Madness, Wit Amidst Folly
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Mutantius
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 10:12 Post subject: |
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| Jenni wrote: | | That's humanity. Many good things have come out of war. |
The egoism of these modern wars such as Vietnam, Iraq 1&2 and Afghanistan has only worsen situations and killed thousands of civilians, fact is the wars above have only had one purpose: To help the US in some kind of way it has never been about saving nor helping a people and I believe its very hard to get something good out of such.
"Why don't you zip it, Zipfero?" - fraich3
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Parallax_
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 10:14 Post subject: |
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| Jenni wrote: | | That's humanity. Many good things have come out of war. |
Nothing good has and ever will come out of war. I think you're brainwashed because your husband is military, no offense. |
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Jenni
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 10:45 Post subject: |
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What a load of rubbish. Most of the technology you're using today came out of some application to war. Modern production lines came out of it too.
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Parallax_
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 11:37 Post subject: |
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OK, I really gotta give you that, British imperialism was a factor in bringing on the industrial revolution (but it was not the only cause), so I will refine my statement. Nothing good has ever come out of MOST wars, and especially recent modern wars.
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Jenni
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 11:45 Post subject: |
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It's not just a production line that came out of war. All sorts of things came out of it. By the way British Imperialism wasn't a factor in the industrial revolution. That came about due to our vast quantities of coal. That's further demonstrated by the industrial revolution that took place in places like Sweden which used wood.
Nothing good came out of WWII? Or the Falklands? try asking the islanders that.
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Parallax_
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 11:50 Post subject: |
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In terms of how wars effect civilians and how many losses comes out of wars, absolutely not.
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Jenni
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 11:58 Post subject: |
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So we should have let Hitler have a free hand in Europe?
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Parallax_
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 12:09 Post subject: |
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I didn't say or suggest that, now did I?
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Jenni
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 12:17 Post subject: |
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Well without the war in Europe that's exactly what he would have had. Or am I wrong in that?
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Parallax_
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 12:24 Post subject: |
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Obviously I am not talking about the outcome of wars, but wars in general. If Hitler won WW2 the outcome would be strictly hypotetical, just guessing. Would we all be talking German? Who knows.
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Mutantius
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Jenni
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| Posted: Thu, 24th May 2007 19:29 Post subject: |
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Yes Mut but initially trade internationally wasn't the driving force to the industrial revolution. It was mainly domestic.
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By that Britain quickly accomplished a monopol on the ressources from America and sold it to the rest of europe, with the huge income they further industrialized and helped maintain a proper urbanization and productivity.
