|
|
| Page 5 of 42 |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Palato
Banned
Posts: 40
Location: FUCK YOU
|
 Posted: Tue, 10th Jul 2007 18:46 Post subject: |
|
|
snop gtfo of this thread.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 15th Apr 2008 05:16 Post subject: |
|
|
So it seems someone has uploaded the EVE client side sourcecode to a certain well known torrent website. Along with chat logs of the person who obtained the code talking to EVE GM or whatever they are called. Anyone who downloads the torrent is being permabanned from EVE.
| Quote: | History:
[20:16] <Abuser> So. Talking with Arkanon wasn\'t fruitful.
[20:17] <[IA]Morpheus> Not quite, what are you trying to achieve?
[20:17] <Abuser> Make CCP confirm some things they are refusing to confirm ...
[20:18] <Abuser> Make intelligent approach to fixing bugs and perfomance issues instead of messing with game balance
[20:18] <Abuser> at least
[20:18] <[IA]Morpheus> You have no idea how we even work, theres 350 employees working at CCP and you don\'t know the slightest about our processes.
[20:18] <Abuser> I don\'t know HOW you work
[20:19] <Abuser> i see the RESULT of this work
[20:19] <Abuser> and UNDERPANTS of it
[20:19] <Abuser> I have enough experience researching MMO\'s
[20:19] <Abuser> eve isn\'t first
[20:19] <Abuser> and won\'t be last
[20:20] <Abuser> so if you want to tell i don\'t have the understanding of CCP infrastructure related to eve - you are somewhat wrong
[20:20] <Abuser> but question isn\'t about this
[20:20] <Abuser> from what i know previous sourcecode leak
[20:20] <Abuser> was couple years ago
[20:20] <Abuser> and from what i see, nothing changes in terms of quality
[20:21] <Abuser> neither things, allowing people to exploit eve (for botting) - were fixed
[20:21] <Abuser> is that how 350 people (i doubt if at least 1/5 - 1/7 of them are programmers)
[20:22] <Abuser> work?
[20:22] <Abuser> Customers without in-depth knowledge will not notice this
[20:22] <Abuser> but what if somebody will explain the situation for them?
[20:23] <Abuser> or you consider USD14.95 people pay you every month aren\'t enough to be fair with them?
[20:26] <[IA]Morpheus> This is the wrong way to go about things and will not lead to a revolution in how CCP does things internally.
[20:26] <[IA]Morpheus> Sorry if thats what you were after.
[20:26] <Abuser> I\'m not looking for revolution
[20:27] <Abuser> Do you know such term as \"Proof of Concept\"?
[20:27] <Abuser> It\'s only enough it to get into hands of people who consider themselves to be programmers
[20:28] <Abuser> Currently eve don\'t have any clientside (and i\'m 100% no serverside, except logs) routines to detect bots 
[20:28] <Abuser> Even stupid ones, using OCR and called Macroses
[20:28] <Abuser>
[20:29] <Abuser> Won\'t the wave of intelligent bots make CCP work at least in the direction of securing the engine?
[20:29] <Abuser>
[20:29] <[IA]Morpheus> Of course it will, that\'s obvious.
[20:29] <Abuser> Nice
[20:29] <Abuser> that\'s at least part of the plan
[20:29] <[IA]Morpheus> If thats what you want to achieve then congratulations, we are always working on improving security and plugging holes. If you want to help with that, try a normal approach like say sending us an email with suggestions.
[20:30] <Abuser> No, you are lying
[20:30] <Abuser> Security wasn\'t improved since last theft
[20:30] <Abuser> except some CryptoAPI and zlib
[20:30] <Abuser> so don\'t try to fool me
[20:31] <[IA]Morpheus> Security is always being worked on, I trust you know programming takes a lot of time and effort.
[20:31] <[IA]Morpheus> You say we have no ways to detect bots, yet we continue to ban thousands of exploiters who sell ISK and so forth.
[20:32] <Abuser> And that\'s all?
[20:32] <Abuser> And what if people start using some hypothetic people2people trading service
[20:33] <Abuser> that will avoid of using sellers who are constantly monitored via logs?
[20:33] <Abuser> so there will be signle and not interconnecting trades
[20:33] <[IA]Morpheus> Then we\'ll pick up on that and fix it..?
[20:33] <Abuser> that\'s how Blizzard can\'t do anything with such theme
[20:33] <Abuser> don\'t think you will manage
[20:33] <Abuser> they are losing more than you
[20:33] <Abuser> Why not to add client-side routines to detect bots?
[20:34] <Abuser> Why using petitions?
[20:34] <Abuser> People can lie, people can put a bucket of dirt on player who never violated eula
[20:35] <Abuser> And he will be banned, if petition will contain only right details describing the things you will never log, but that are surely be bot\'s actions
[20:36] <Abuser> EVE Clientside is enough to put bot-detecting routines there
[20:36] <Abuser> you can even use
[20:36] <Abuser> your spyware approach
[20:36] <Abuser> similar to when downloading PC identification python object during authentication as payload
[20:37] <[IA]Morpheus> Let it all out, I\'ll be sure to forward the conversation to all of our programmers, if thats what you want.
[20:37] <Abuser> No, your programmers are just following the plan
[20:37] <Abuser> they aren\'t that bad guys who caused all this anarchy
[20:37] <[IA]Morpheus> Care to tell me who did?
[20:38] <Abuser> Those who plan eve development and/or who decide the priority of client upgrades to be implemented.
[20:39] <Abuser> Currently Shiny Features have more priority than solidifying security and fixing bugs, from what i see
[20:40] <Abuser> Or how else you can explain the ability for the bots to use same approach to exploit eve engine as when previous sourcecode leak was?
[20:41] <Abuser> Nothing changed to prevent this?
[20:41] <Abuser> But we\'ve got tons of content patched
[20:41] <Abuser> but still lagging jita and deadly lagging blobs
[20:41] <Abuser> but from patchnotes i see that these things aren\'t your priority
[20:42] <[IA]Morpheus> I see that your intentions are good but this isn\'t playing out nicely for either parts.
[20:43] <Abuser> Guys, theres no other way that will play better.
[20:43] <Abuser> You simply ignore community requests to fix the core of eve, rather than add new coats to it, to make community forget about the bugs.
[20:43] <[IA]Morpheus> I despise bots and hacks over everything, but this is also a business, we\'ve got developers designing content and EVE needs to grow. I know for a fact that there are programmers working on security, more than that I can\'t really say.
[20:43] <[IA]Morpheus> If you think we are releasing new content to make you forget about bugs then I\'m not sure what I can say to convince you.
[20:44] <[IA]Morpheus> Patches have always been 50% bug fixes 50% content or so.
[20:44] <Abuser> Could you certainly say me what your programmers did to secure clientside from exploiting Eve?
[20:44] <Abuser> what\'s certainly
[20:45] <Abuser> I don\'t have anything against content makers - their ideas are good, really good
[20:45] <Abuser> I have full eve sourcecode, so you know what\'s did, and what\'s not;)
[20:46] <Abuser> From all security i saw - were ROLE permissions for logins with priviliges higher than usual player, and some minor things in relation to prevent some remote service calls (some with potentially bad payload)
[20:46] <Abuser> nothing else
[20:47] <Abuser> is that called \"programmers working on security\"?
[20:47] <[IA]Morpheus> Are you cruising for a job or something?
[20:47] <Abuser> Nah
[20:47] <Abuser> neither job, neither anything else
[20:47] <Abuser> you may think of in such direction
[20:48] <Abuser> Digging the situation to uncover the truth
[20:49] <Abuser> You may compare me to fox mulder from x-files series
[20:49] <Abuser> it\'s the best description of why i do this
[20:49] <[IA]Morpheus> Ah, well, nice to meet you Mr Mulder.
[20:50] <Abuser> So... would you like to answer what AWESOME ccp programmers did in relation to client/server security (at least for client?)
[20:51] <[IA]Morpheus> No, we won\'t respond to blackmail. If you think we don\'t care or aren\'t working on improving security you are sadly mistaken.
[20:51] <Abuser> IA
[20:51] <Abuser> did you saw the code yourself?
[20:51] <[IA]Morpheus> Yeah, and?
[20:51] <Abuser> or you are just telling me someone else\'s words?
[20:52] <[IA]Morpheus> Nop, I\'m all alone.
[20:52] <Abuser> And where do you see security fixes or bot catching routines in client?
[20:52] <[IA]Morpheus> I wouldn\'t know, I\'m not a programmer.
[20:52] <Abuser> YAY
[20:52] <[IA]Morpheus> If you think we are gonna tell you everything we\'ve done or are going to do then I\'ve got a bridge to sell you.
[20:53] <Abuser> so how you can tell if there are security pathces?
[20:53] <Abuser> Morpheus, i have a client sourcecode
[20:53] <Abuser> and have a people who can supply me with updates
[20:53] <Abuser> of each new version
[20:54] <Abuser> (where my python decompiler won\'t be able to handle optimized bytecode)
[20:54] <[IA]Morpheus> There\'s probably more to it than meets the eye, Fox Mulder.
[20:54] <Abuser> so in relation to client i have the same about of knowledge as you
[20:55] <Abuser> So you insist that security patches are applied to client and client is secure and non-exploitable?
[20:55] <Abuser> Maybe i should release a small hack with portion of eve sourcecode to eve forums that will exploit something?
[20:55] <Abuser> or you will continue to talk that everything is fine?
[20:56] <[IA]Morpheus> Heh, I\'m not saying there aren\'t exploits, don\'t be naive..
[20:56] <Abuser> o
[20:56] <Abuser> there\'s 1 big exploit )
[20:56] <[IA]Morpheus> There are and probably will always be, however we will continue to work against them. What else do you want?
[20:56] <Abuser> and tons of small ones
[20:56] <Abuser> not the ones requiring people to do queue of actions ingame to achieve the result
[20:57] <[IA]Morpheus> And you want this fixed?
[20:57] <Abuser> i\'m talking about the ones, that are coming to light when you are exploiting eve python engine (oh god they said me it\'s impossible)
[20:57] <Abuser> Easiest way was to start using c++ and completely rewrite the code some time ago
[20:57] <Abuser> but i assume it\'s too late
[20:58] <Abuser> so you will not get rid of python injections
[20:58] <[IA]Morpheus> Time will tell, I suppose.
[20:58] <Abuser> but you can think of coding anti-bot routines
[20:58] <Abuser> I wonder if your programmers and qa know at least 1/20 of they ways possible to use to inject the code
[20:59] <Abuser> starting from most stupid approach
[20:59] <Abuser> and ending with ring0 injector
[20:59] <Abuser> trust me
[21:00] <Abuser> you can try
[21:00] <Abuser> ugh
[21:00] <Abuser> you COULD try
[21:00] <Abuser> but nothing was done in this direction for years
[21:00] <Abuser> i know people who are safely botting (first with ocr, then on python code bots) from early years of eve
[21:01] <Abuser> and they also agree nothing was changed in terms to stop or make the bots function wrong
[21:02] <[IA]Morpheus> You know, if you want that to stop you should let us know exactly how those bots function instead of threatening to leak source code.
[21:02] <Abuser> only if i will have public guarantess and confirmation that certain list of things will be fixed
[21:03] <Abuser> confirmation on each exploit
[21:03] <Abuser> otherways - there\'s no sense
[21:03] <Abuser> i\'m not only want to see these things fixes
[21:04] <Abuser> it also requires CCP to confirm that these bugs existed (and exist) over years
[21:04] <Abuser> you understand what i mean
[21:05] <Abuser> i\'m thinking of some patching for trinity graphic engine
[21:05] <Abuser> to show that it\'s possible to make client show much more fps
[21:06] <Abuser> at least in space, during large fights
[21:06] <Abuser> (and that\'s one more stone to the window of your programmers, who must be forgot of such thing as level of details)
[21:07] <Abuser> there are many things - some interesting constants, that should be controlled by server, but they are not; ability to faster change sessions, unloading unnecessary services in runtime when they are not required
[21:08] <Abuser> truth on some strange session roles like viplogin
[21:08] <Abuser> 10 megabytes of code are enough to find a lot of things that should be there
[21:10] <Abuser> *should not
[21:11] <Abuser> And How these bots are functioning?
[21:12] <Abuser> Executing python code inside of eve python interpreter
[21:12] <Abuser>
[21:12] <Abuser> Or calling python api (these are less intelligent ones) to call objects, methods from eve python
[21:14] <Abuser> Untile eve uses python, there\'s no way to prevent these bots from using it too
[21:14] <Abuser> Untile=>*While
[21:15] <Abuser> It\'s possible to catch them, but not prevent from appearing and being more and more intelligent.
[21:15] <Abuser> In near perspective, other people who also have eve sourcecode (not from me) - will be able to release the bot that will be able to keep in control every single in-game activity usual player can do ingame.
[21:16] <Abuser> So only way (if you are not going to stop using python) - is to implement a bot catching routines on clientside
[21:22] <[IA]Morpheus> Well, thanks for all the advice.
[21:23] <Abuser> so
[21:23] <Abuser> i assume there will be no public excuse and to do list of bugs to fix from CCP?
[21:27] <[IA]Morpheus> Not quite, however, we are prepared to talk if you want your EVE Accounts reopened. This would also be a chance for you to give and receive feedback on the horrible bugs and exploits you know about.
[21:27] <Abuser> I\'m not interested in my eve accounts
[21:27] <Abuser> The ones you closed
[21:27] <Abuser> weren\'t involved in testing
[21:27] <[IA]Morpheus> Then we have nothing more to discuss, thank you for your time and have a good day.
[21:32] <Abuser> It\'s was nice you agreed to talk with me.
[21:32] <Abuser> Personal thanks for your patience, Morpheus.
[21:32] <Abuser> Have a good day.
[21:32] <[IA]Morpheus> Sure thing. Farewell.
<[IA]Morpheus> Hi, give me a few minutes to reply to your mail.
<Abuser> Sure
<[IA]Morpheus> Do you have a list of bugs and exploits, the ones that you want us to fix?
<Abuser> 1. List of exploitable clientside things.
<Abuser> 2. Description of ways to exploit python engine (with examples)
<Abuser> 3. Ways to detect the bot(-s)
<Abuser> but
<Abuser> only in case terms i listed during our last discussion yesterday
<Abuser> *case of accepting
<[IA]Morpheus> Can you list them again please so I can run this by some people?
<Abuser> 1. List of places in clientside code that allows to code small client-side hacks.
<Abuser> 2. Descriptions of the ways to intrude in EVE python engine and execute arbitary code there
<Abuser> 3. Ways to detect existing bot(-s) (at least know 1 serious enough)
<Abuser> 4. General ideas to improve EULA.
<Abuser> Only when:
<Abuser> 1. CCP published press release with:
<Abuser> a) confirmation of some bugs/holes existed for years
<Abuser> or
<Abuser> b) publishes in-depth reports on these bugs, and reports on what fixes were made for them
<Abuser> 2. CCP starts work in direction of serverside+clienside bot detection routines, also with public press releases (less detailed ofc)
<Abuser> That\'s all.
<[IA]Morpheus> Alright, give me a few please.
<Abuser> Sure.
<[IA]Morpheus> Going to forward this to someone who can make a decision. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 15th Apr 2008 05:40 Post subject: |
|
|
1) i <3 python
2) i <3 python decompilers even more
3) Sometimes, the only way to get people to change things is to rub their faces in it. However, he could have achieved this with a POC and explanation on how to fix each bug. Releasing the python sources, and thereby threatening the IP of the company (i.e. its lifeblood), was taking it too far.
I hope this gets people to wake the fuck up and realize that interpreter/VM languages are not secure and should not be used in any program where people are expected to prod and break the security of the afore-mentioned program.
Everyone here was stupid. The devs were stupid for using python in the first place, and the hacker was stupid for releasing the code, and taking the issue waaaay too far. Watch EVE online degenerate into the Diablo 2 Battlenet in terms of hacks.
Sense Amid Madness, Wit Amidst Folly
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 15th Apr 2008 22:16 Post subject: |
|
|
thanks for posting that sueil.
Abuser is a prick. Not that I care about CCP, but the CCP guy was perfectly polite and offered him things that he could of easily withheld.
Besides, what popular multiplayer game doesn't have hackers?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nightlith
Posts: 744
Location: Land of Bagged Milk
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 20th May 2008 14:27 Post subject: |
|
|
Join "Eve Uni" eve university,, they are a bit odd balls but they will teach you some good fundamental things about the game and combat etc..
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 20th May 2008 17:06 Post subject: |
|
|
This game is made out of pure sex.
I also think fisk should be unbanned.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CrossWire
Posts: 208
Location: I make one tiny mistake and
|
| Posted: Tue, 20th May 2008 20:38 Post subject: |
|
|
Long, long time ago, I signed up with Eve, 3 years later I wake up and realize I am not enjoying myself, 3 years wasted, working my butt of for a few isk. For me, Eve doesn't exist anymore.
Before you ask.............NO! your not having my stuff.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Wed, 21st May 2008 23:36 Post subject: |
|
|
You seem not to understand the meaning of the word 'grind' in this context. Grind means to repeat one task over and over, waiting for skills to complete even when you're not online or have your account subscribed is not that.
Rewarding players for playing a long time, now that's exactly what that is for.
I also think fisk should be unbanned.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Thu, 22nd May 2008 04:27 Post subject: |
|
|
| snop1050 wrote: | like grinding missions , grinding plex , grinding roids , grinding away at towers to get sov?  |
I don't do PvE, mining or POS-warfare and still make money and have lots of fun. Of course you can choose to grind. But don't blame the game for not having the imagination or the ability to see beyond that.
| Quote: |
at one time in beta and early retail eve was awesome then came the alliances making 0.0 crappy because noone went there freelance or in small squads anymore which killed small scale pvp and made pvp boring. |
That's your view and I suppose it's true for you. We are a 60 man corp that have 10 man gangs and do small squad warfare all the time, and have been doing so for the past 2 years. Small scale pvp is still there, it just changed. You either adapt to the game changes or you "die".
| Quote: |
i dont know about you but 200+ lag fest node crashes isnt my idea of fun.
|
Nor is it mine. The factional warfare might help those who aren't too skilled but still wants easy PvP.
| Quote: |
i didnt fail at eve either i had a thanatos , 2x fully tech 2 megathrons on one account , and about 7 fully t2 fitted command ships on another with 14 billion in isk between my characters. |
Assets and skillpoints is not equal to skill. The fact that you didn't discover that in your time tells me that you either had a very limited experience, or just didn't try to do things differently.
| Quote: |
you wont understand how much more fun the game was in beta or early retail unless you played back then. i remember a time when sentry guns werent on gates and concord were slow and weak compared to there are now. |
And it was 5000 players playing it. If it had continued to be "that game" it would've been dead a long time ago. Now it's 40,000 players on the same server at the same time and 350,000 subscribers which is a number that have been continually increasing.
It sure is not the same game as back then, it's a hell of a lot harder to get into as you now have to compete over things much more. Whereas in the "old days" space was actually mostly empty, except for a few hubs. As a game grows, it needs to adapt to the larger player base and content changes. Comparing EVE back then to EVE now is apples and oranges, on the one hand you had a lot more exploits, bugs, and untested game mechanisms that were fun for those who played it religiously - then things needed to be balanced (lol at the non-stacknerfed apoc or the raven with all target painters and rage torps taking down other BS in one volley), and adapted to allow for more casual players and invite people to do things on a daily basis.
There's still hardcore players that manage to adapt to the game mechanics and can have a lot of fun. But it requires time and dedication to do that. You can no longer be "the hero" alone as you could with the pre-NOS/pre-ECM/pre-STACKNERF dominix, because only a limited group of players knew how horribly imbalanced it was and they could just easily kill entire gangs of people while tanking sentries (or not, depending on how early).
Adapt or die, has been the ground philosophy of EVE since the start, and still is.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Thu, 22nd May 2008 09:38 Post subject: |
|
|
from what still exists on some random killboard found via google not bad for 2 chars that have been dead for nearly 2 years there should be far more kills and loses.
i think its safe to say i knew how to pvp. alliance i was in is probably dead now and dont have there killboard still
main
Losses: 15
Kills: 133
Success ratio: 1,613% (8:1)
Lost ISK: 840,803,272
Destroyed ISK: 13,564,145,002
alt
Losses: 11
Kills: 131
Success ratio: 710% (19:1)
Lost ISK: 510,238,902
Destroyed ISK: 3,624,047,874
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Thu, 22nd May 2008 09:45 Post subject: |
|
|
260 kills in three years? Why on earth would you drag that open here, you're not making a case for yourself dude.
edit: But really, I'm not debating your ability here. Just your perception of the game.
I also think fisk should be unbanned.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Thu, 22nd May 2008 09:47 Post subject: |
|
|
| dominae wrote: | | 260 kills in three years? Why on earth would you drag that open here, you're not making a case for yourself dude. |
you think all the killboards still have killmails from like 2 years ago? nevermine like 5 years ago or whenever it was i started playing eve
btw you do realise the killmail format has changed more than a few times? so many became invalid when that happened and couldnt be imported into killboards again if they ever messed with there databases
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Thu, 22nd May 2008 16:52 Post subject: |
|
|
Any idiot can join an alliance and sit on a gate popping anything that passes through. I'm not saying you are but those same stats could have been achieved by anyone, good at Pvp or otherwise.
The comments about Skill points and isk counting for everything is a complete myth as well, a good group of pilots with cheap T1 crap can still take down enemies with much bigger ships and higher SP. A new pilot can train a few ECM skills in no time, that pilot with his 2 years of SP and T2 fitted battleship cant do a single thing about it because he's jammed!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Thu, 22nd May 2008 18:40 Post subject: |
|
|
so anyways, when are they gonna add avatar combat into EVE like Pirates of the Burning Sea?
i was thinking i might go back to EVE, but i dunno, reading this thread reminds me of why i quit playing in the first place, lol.
“There's nothing an agnostic can't do if he doesn't know whether he believes in anything or not”
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Fri, 23rd May 2008 01:05 Post subject: |
|
|
| bishman82 wrote: | Any idiot can join an alliance and sit on a gate popping anything that passes through. I'm not saying you are but those same stats could have been achieved by anyone, good at Pvp or otherwise.
The comments about Skill points and isk counting for everything is a complete myth as well, a good group of pilots with cheap T1 crap can still take down enemies with much bigger ships and higher SP. A new pilot can train a few ECM skills in no time, that pilot with his 2 years of SP and T2 fitted battleship cant do a single thing about it because he's jammed! |
goons shown it is possible but they needed far superior numbers to do anything with cheap ships and low skillpoints FACT, they always had atleast 2-3 times more people than there enemies and always kept coming back in new t1 ships.
i was in there coalition so i think i know about how effective low sp and t1 ships are..
you ever see the BOB gangs of 30+ commandships? they raped anything that wasnt t2
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Fri, 23rd May 2008 03:01 Post subject: |
|
|
Your flaw here is that you mistake your perception of the game as how the game is for everyone.
30 people in command ships isn't a representation of the game, it's an exception. These days BOB mostly fly capitals, 7 titans for example.
I also think fisk should be unbanned.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Fri, 23rd May 2008 04:07 Post subject: |
|
|
As eve is constantly evolving there is no need to make eve II as of yet.
Per Ardua Ad Astra
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Page 5 of 42 |
All times are GMT + 1 Hour |
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB 2.0.8 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
|
 |
|
(not that i play wow).
