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Parallax_
VIP Member
Posts: 6422
Location: Norway
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 Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 12:55 Post subject: |
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| EwarWoo1 wrote: | If a teenage girl wouldn't buy Rimmel but lifts it anyway, that's theft.
It may not be a physical thing, but theft it still is. |
Your view seems kind of jaded on the whole issue. Theft is the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property or another. Even the law looks different upon theft and piracy.
Heck, as previously mentioned, just because one pirates a game doesn't mean that person ever intended on buying it, disregardless if it was in fact available to download or not.
Some people download games and play through them as a preview, if they thought it was worth buying they would (there seems to be different criterias here depending on the circumstances), and some don't. How do you separate between the two? |
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 13:25 Post subject: |
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It's just business and someone wants to make a nice bundle of cash, some kind of hype these days about pirates and people wanting to stop them - demand, a magic chip that will cut the scurvy dogs and make em walk their own plank yarrr - supply. Of course it's a bad idea and it won't work but it's just business as usual, in fact I think they pretty much know it wouldn't stop anybody from pirating games, except the really dumb and the technologically inept but they are already stooped with present protections, but hey if someone is dumb enough to buy it why not.
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 13:27 Post subject: |
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Isn't this the same guy who said SP games are useless and would disappear? Being completely replaced by MP games? Or was that another Atari Exec?
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 13:59 Post subject: |
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it's not completely true..
if you wanna taste the game, try the demo on what you can decide whether you buy it or not..
if you download the full game and you wouldn't have bought it at all, then why do you play it? it's others' hard work and you just "eat it all" for free.
yes
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73238
Location: Ramat HaSharon, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 14:04 Post subject: |
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Because there aren't so many demos out there anymore (at least for PC)? Or because some games are so short, they are not worth their price?
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 14:11 Post subject: |
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| Newty182 wrote: |
You end up with something which you obtained illegally without paying. That is theft. plain and simple. To say you wouldn;t have got it otherwise doesn;t matter.
If a teenage girl wouldn't buy Rimmel but lifts it anyway, that's theft.
It may not be a physical thing, but theft it still is.
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Piracy is not theft, no matter how you look at it (even though those who makes software wants us to think that way)
If someone goes into a shop and takes something without paying for it, then it's theft. If someone downloads a game it's breaking copyright laws, but not theft
Would you still call it theft in this situation:
Game X gets released. Person Y hears about the game, but based on reviews/demo/whatever he doesn't want to buy it as he thinks it'll probably suck. He decides to give it a shot by downloading it and ends up buying the game, as it's much better than expected
Because person Y downloaded the game, Game X was sold one more time. Pirated software became free advertisement
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-=Cartoon=-
VIP Member
Posts: 8823
Location: South Pacific Ocean
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 14:11 Post subject: |
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its fucking simple
Good games sell.
Shit games dont (on pc)
Devs/everyone else blames piracy for poor sales
But good games DO make alot of money
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 14:24 Post subject: |
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| Adagio.81 wrote: | Piracy is not theft, no matter how you look at it (even though those who makes software wants us to think that way)
If someone goes into a shop and takes something without paying for it, then it's theft. If someone downloads a game it's breaking copyright laws, but not theft
Would you still call it theft in this situation:
Game X gets released. Person Y hears about the game, but based on reviews/demo/whatever he doesn't want to buy it as he thinks it'll probably suck. He decides to give it a shot by downloading it and ends up buying the game, as it's much better than expected
Because person Y downloaded the game, Game X was sold one more time. Pirated software became free advertisement |
That's porbably a very, very small percentage of downloaders you're describing there. I don't care what it is called, theft or copyright infringement, but do you really believe the majority of the downloaders buy a game after having finished the complete game already? If you think the game will be crap and if you believe it isn't worth the money, you either don't play it or you wait until it hits the bargain bin.
I download games too, but I don't make up lame excuses for it.
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 14:26 Post subject: |
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| cnZ wrote: |
if you wanna taste the game, try the demo on what you can decide whether you buy it or not..
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There are several problems here:
1. Not all games has demos
2. Not all demos actually shows what the full game is like*
*Often I've played a "good" demo with 1-2 levels. Those few levels where fun, and the demo promises much much more, so you end up buying the game. Then you realize that the full game isn't much more than the demo (just a few more levels and MP that doesn't work)
| cnZ wrote: |
if you download the full game and you wouldn't have bought it at all, then why do you play it? |
To give it a chance, sometimes you'd get surprised. Or maybe sometimes you're trying to decide between game A and game B, which game should you buy? Download both games, decide which one deserves the money the most. Also some times you hear about a game that doesn't run well on a lot of computers, would you want to shell out $$$ for a game that you may or may not be able to run, even though your computer should be able to?
You could also go the other way: You see a new game that has gotten high ratings and it seems like a good game. You buy it, install it, play it, then realizes that the game is not for you anyway, and decides to uninstall it within 10 minutes. Now you've just thrown money out the window and wishes you that you had just downloaded it instead
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 14:33 Post subject: |
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| Parallax_ wrote: | | Your view seems kind of jaded on the whole issue. |
1 persons jaded is another's honest. I just don't lie to myself as well as others. No point kidding yourself you're Robin Hood when you're miles from it.
| Parallax_ wrote: | | Some people download games and play through them as a preview, if they thought it was worth buying they would (there seems to be different criterias here depending on the circumstances), and some don't. How do you separate between the two? |
You can't. Because I'd be fairly certain most if not all who fall into the former camp exaggerate how honestly they do this. I'm sure they buy games from time to time, but I'm sure they also complete them from time to time without buying them too.
| snop1050 wrote: | | its not theft if they dont lose anything, |
It is theft if you obtain something illegally.
Look at the definition of steal:
1. to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.
Downloading illegal software certainly fits into definition 1. It doesn't specify the other partty loses anything, just that you take something without permission or right. e.g., a game that cost millions of dollars to develop.
Stealing is by definition theft.
I'm not trying to give you an hard time for the act. I do it myself. Just the whole romanticised blah blah how dare they try and stop us they're evil bollocks is just that.
Just cut the romance, and stop giving the softcos an hard time for stopping people stealing from them. They have every right.
The battle will always go on and most probably they'll never win, but that doesn't mean they have no right to fight it. In fact they fight it an hell of a lot fairer than we do.
Last edited by EwarWoo1 on Sat, 24th May 2008 14:37; edited 2 times in total
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 14:33 Post subject: |
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| Mister_s wrote: |
That's porbably a very, very small percentage of downloaders you're describing there. I don't care what it is called, theft or copyright infringement, but do you really believe the majority of the downloaders buy a game after having finished the complete game already?
(...)
I download games too, but I don't make up lame excuses for it. |
I don't make up lame excuses, I tell the truth
No, I don't believe a majority of the downloaders buys the game after finishing it, I never said that. I said some do, where I'm one of them
And the question is still open: Do you still call it theft, even though person Y ended up buying the game he downloaded?
| Mister_s wrote: |
If you think the game will be crap and if you believe it isn't worth the money, you either don't play it or you wait until it hits the bargain bin.
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See my other post about this. I have several times downloaded games that I thought would be uninstalled within minutes and ended up buying it instead
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 14:36 Post subject: |
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| Adagio.81 wrote: | | And the question is still open: Do you still call it theft, even though person Y ended up buying the game he downloaded? |
Yes. You stole the booze, got pissed, felt guilty and went back to pay the next day.
Still theft. Just with mitigating circumstances.
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 14:39 Post subject: |
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| Adagio.81 wrote: | | See my other post about this. I have several times downloaded games that I thought would be uninstalled within minutes and ended up buying it instead |
Then you're one of that very small percentage who does buy his games.
Let's be real, it's easy to find out whether a game is good or not. You have demos, previews, reviews, video reviews, gameplay vids, youtube vids etc. The "I try the full game to see if it's good" argument seems illogical to me.
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 14:41 Post subject: |
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| Newty182 wrote: | | so what if they have signs saying that. if they had them signs in shops in the uk they wouldnt mean shit. thats a shit law in Oz if putting up signs gives shopkeepers the right to search u. ide tell em to fu*k off |
Shop security as every right to detain you pending the arrival of police to come and officially search you. You'd have wasted a lot of your time. Personally I have better things to do.
And that's the same in the UK as well BTW. Not just because of the signs, anytime they suspect. Just refusal of a search would be grounds for suspicion.
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 14:45 Post subject: |
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| EwarWoo1 wrote: | Shop security as every right to detain you pending the arrival of police to come and officially search you. You'd have wasted a lot of your time. Personally I have better things to do.
And that's the same in the UK as well BTW. Not just because of the signs, anytime they suspect. Just refusal of a search would be grounds for suspicion. |
I doubt they can search your bags without reason, that's probably what Jenni was talking about. They can stop you when the thingie beeps of course, but they can't just stop you and search your bags just because you look funny. You may think fighting it when that happens is a waste of time, but if you're stopped because the guy doesn't like your face it's a matter of principle.
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 14:48 Post subject: |
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| Mister_s wrote: | | I doubt they can search your bags without reason, that's probably what Jenni was talking about. They can stop you when the thingie beeps of course, but they can't just stop you and search your bags just because you look funny. |
In Oz they check everyone's bag who's leaving the store, without exception. In the big chains anyways. It's standard practice these days.
It's not really anything heavy, it's just a case of opening it up and letting 'em have a glance.
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 14:49 Post subject: |
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| Mister_s wrote: |
Let's be real, it's easy to find out whether a game is good or not. You have demos, previews, reviews, video reviews, gameplay vids, youtube vids etc. The "I try the full game to see if it's good" argumant seems illogical to me. |
Yes, we have previews, reviews, sometimes demos, gameplay movies, etc... but that doesn't always tell you if you would end up liking a game. I have a long list of games where I have seen reviews filled with lies (Gamespot is the place with most of those reviews). I also have a long list of games where all reviews, gameinfo, gameplay movies, etc has made a game out to be worth any penny, but then after playing the game you realize that they have forgotten to mention the features in the game that really kills the game
Or what if you find a game that really sounds awesome, you test it at your friends and falls in love with the game. You check the specs and can see that your computer is way above recommended specs. You then buy the game, install it and finds out that for some unknown reason the game just wont run on your computer
| EwarWoo1 wrote: | | Adagio.81 wrote: | | And the question is still open: Do you still call it theft, even though person Y ended up buying the game he downloaded? |
Yes. You stole the booze, got pissed, felt guilty and went back to pay the next day.
Still theft. Just with mitigating circumstances. |
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 15:30 Post subject: |
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Dont they have consols with these kind of chips. whatever if they go that route they are only turning the pc from an open medium to a constricted console that you can pick & choose your pieces. Plus what is made by man can be undone by man so im not to worried. When are these company's going to realize what can be made can be undone FFS.
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Jenni
Banned
Posts: 9526
Location: England.
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 15:32 Post subject: |
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| EwarWoo1 wrote: |
Shop security as every right to detain you pending the arrival of police to come and officially search you. You'd have wasted a lot of your time. Personally I have better things to do.
And that's the same in the UK as well BTW. Not just because of the signs, anytime they suspect. Just refusal of a search would be grounds for suspicion. |
I'm from the UK and I can tell you for a fact that's totally incorrect. If you're suspected of theft they have absolutely no right to search you. They have the right to hold you until the Police arrive. I've never ever seen a sign saying they want to search you because quite simply it would be illegal.
BTW your idea of theft is right, however we're not talking about theft are we, we're talking about Piracy:
the unauthorized reproduction or use of a copyrighted book, recording, television program, patented invention, trademarked product, etc.: The record industry is beset with piracy. |
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 15:33 Post subject: |
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| Ace170780 wrote: | | Dont they have consols with these kind of chips. whatever if they go that route they are only turning the pc from an open medium to a constricted console that you can pick & choose your pieces. Plus what is made by man can be undone by man so im not to worried. When are these company's going to realize what can be made can be undone FFS. |
CP isn't about making a game uncrackable, it's about stopping Joe Average from leeching the game. Of course devs realize eveything is crackable. The longer they can delay that cracking process, the better for them.
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Cohen
Posts: 7155
Location: Rapture
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 15:55 Post subject: |
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I will believe it when I see it (and I probably wont).
troll detected by SiN
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 15:58 Post subject: |
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| Jenni wrote: | | I'm from the UK and I can tell you for a fact that's totally incorrect. If you're suspected of theft they have absolutely no right to search you. They have the right to hold you until the Police arrive. I've never ever seen a sign saying they want to search you because quite simply it would be illegal. |
I think your reading skills temporarily failed you as I said exactly that, they can hold you until police arrive of they suspect, and I said signs were in Oz not in the UK.
And I'm from the UK originally myself as well, so not just pissing in the wind when I talk about over there.
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 16:29 Post subject: |
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According to the disclamers on movie intros piracy is theft!
With regards to the chip on motherboard copy protection, I cant see it ever working, because people would have to buy whole new systems just to run a game, which most people certainly wouldnt, and therefore theyd lose out on those sales, and only stop people pirating the game who probably wouldnt have bought it anyway
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 17:09 Post subject: |
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[quote="Locklin"]According to the disclamers on movie intros piracy is theft!
Oh yes the almighty movie disclaimer who can argue with that?
All knowledge should be open source and free to all human beings and be available everywhere. Art is a from of knowledge and movies,music,video games, etc are all apart of art.
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Big_Gun
Posts: 3017
Location: My mother's womb originally. . .
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 17:14 Post subject: |
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| Jenni wrote: | | EwarWoo1 wrote: |
For trying to stop people stealing from 'em?
Dumb mother fucker.
I'm not being heavy on piracy, I do it myself, but ffs people stop trying to be all high and moral etc.
It's stealing plain and simple.
If you can't face that you're a thief instead of looking for justifications stop bladdy stealing.
If everyone stopped stealoing they'd stop with the heavy protection. Shops search bags these days. That's intrusive. That's annoying. But do you see shoplifters joining up to use it as justification and suddenly act like they're not really thiefs? |
Since when is piracy theft? I'm not taking anything that I wouldn't have bought myself anyway and I'm not denying a product that I wouldn't have bought anyway.
Since when have shops searched bags. Any security guard that stopped me and tried to search my bag would learn the hard way through the courts that stopping a customer to search is illegal. Well it is here anyway. Security has no more rights to stop people than the common man and they're certainly not allowed to search you. |
Lol. Next time... some car thief needs to tell the court that it really wasn't theft because he never would have bought the car anyway.
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| Posted: Sat, 24th May 2008 17:17 Post subject: |
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well, here the difference is that one is a physical object and the other is a virtual bits and bytes. you are just copying the source.
yes
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