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 Posted: Sat, 13th Dec 2008 16:34 Post subject: |
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my last words here:
CPs are important! basic CPs without DRM-like complexity are required! just to keep the product from playing for 1-2-3 weeks. in that time developers/publishers earn most of their income, after that many devs release a patch which removes CP completelely (x3 for example) or prior to this a crack wil be made
i know pirates don't like the idea as they would like to play the game without giving anything back in the same time as consumers or even earlier sometimes (vice city was released 2 weeks prior to rls date). such tactics are really slowing down or worse killing income
sure you disagree, then i'd suggest you to join with torrentfreak.com readers - they seem to be a bunch of retards without any economic knowledge and/or ethical manners
yes
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Dec 2008 16:39 Post subject: |
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I have nothing against CP (unlike most of the "name dropping" that author wrote about in his article, I DO remember using code-wheels, manual snippets and even the ZX81 hardware dongle) except when it's thrust in my face.
I've got a legit Mass Effect and it's installed perfectly. Hell, I share a key with a good friend and we've installed it 4-5 times together now .. no issues. I just don't like having to be on the net before I can play a game I just paid xxx quid for.
StarForce is history, so I have no gripes with current CP methods. None whatsoever. My points I typed in this thread weren't against CP in general, but against the author's opinions in that article.
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Cythrawl
Posts: 98
Location: Arse over Tit, USA
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Dec 2008 19:22 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: |
The "World of Goo" paragraph made me sick. 90% piracy rate? Bullshit. There's no fucking way in hell any publisher or developer could know that - and certainly not by looking at the SUPPORT statistics. |
Erm no thats not how they got the number, and its far from bullshit. They are an Indy developer, they also happen to be the only place you can buy the game.
They have no ties to any other publisher etc, and yet they have this nice feature showing everyone's highest tower online, No CD Key required, nothing is needed to use the feature, however its a nice little statistic tool for the devs.
They sell the game, so they know how many they have sold and the number of people with high towers online do not even amount to near what they have sold..
Its simple math..
They probably have less than a 90% (I'm sure that's used for sensationalism) piracy rate, but its pretty damn high all things considered.
And they have No DRM, no Stupid greedy publisher behind them, nothing... and they got really badly burned.
I kinda feel sorry for them in a way, but its not utter bullshit like you said.
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Dec 2008 19:26 Post subject: |
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World of Goo is sold on Steam and WiiWare ... neither of which are controlled by that indie developer.
I'm not saying I don't feel bad for them, I'm saying the statistic that 90% piracy is bullshit. It's unfathomable, IMO. Sensationalist over-exaggeration, perhaps.
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Dec 2008 19:57 Post subject: |
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All you need to know is how they got those results they took all the IP's and compared it to the units soled, now I have a dynamic IP that changes every once in a while and they didn't account for that I mean this is not a reliable way to detect piracy levels, the game sold very well for them on steam and it topped the wii charts so they did well and have nothing to complain about.
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Dec 2008 20:30 Post subject: |
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I love anti/pro piracy debates, heh. They always get so heated .. but there's always enough GOOD points made to keep it interesting.
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Dec 2008 20:49 Post subject: |
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Same points that have been made a million times and no one will ever concede anything. The data speaks for itself. I mean, we are on one of countless thousands of forums and websites dedicated to it. But hey, it's not that big of a deal!
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Dec 2008 20:52 Post subject: |
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Yeah.. and 58% of the entire WORLD's web traffic is p2p piracy. Honest. I mean, it must be!!! The DATA says so. Serious.
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Dec 2008 20:57 Post subject: |
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That's probably not too far off.
One private tracker I belong to has done something like 150PB in transfers in under 2 years. And it's a fairly small tracker.
That's 150x the amount of data that facebook stores.
Last edited by rhagz on Sat, 13th Dec 2008 20:59; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Dec 2008 20:58 Post subject: |
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I have a lot of trouble believing it, to be honest.
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Dec 2008 21:00 Post subject: |
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It's the internet... you can always argue about something. Thats what makes these forums entertaining ^^
As for piracy ... well I personally think that it's kinda sad that even the most stupid people on the planet can do it now. In the old days you had to have knowlage and sources to get the good stuff... these days there piratebay.
Thanks to that we get all those reports of complete retards using the tech support for their pirated copy and stuff like that. Its a sad state but the easyness of windows and the decline of actual knowlage of operating system usage can't be reverted anymore.
As for quality of games ... Yes quality of games is failing but its also the fact that we get older. Back in the day I used to like those simple games, frustating simple and linear but noone cared. Now a decade later the games are more or less the same with enhanced gfx. The only thing changed is the player that expects the games to evolve too. But I think we have to accept that the targetaudience will always be the small console retard that expects stuff to go BOOOM when he pressed the A or X button.
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Dec 2008 21:02 Post subject: |
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| Blackclaw wrote: |
As for piracy ... well I personally think that it's kinda sad that even the most stupid people on the planet can do it now. In the old days you had to have knowlage and sources to get the good stuff... these days there piratebay. |
Yeah man. Copy a: b: and xeroxing a manual was really tough.
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Dec 2008 21:07 Post subject: |
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That's true you have to be fucking stupid and retarded to call support and have a pirated copy I noticed in interviews recently that is the one thing that pisses publishers of the most you didn't pay for your copy and now you are taking their time as well, could be the reason for all the pirate hate recently.
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73196
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Sat, 13th Dec 2008 21:16 Post subject: |
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| rhagz wrote: | | Blackclaw wrote: |
As for piracy ... well I personally think that it's kinda sad that even the most stupid people on the planet can do it now. In the old days you had to have knowlage and sources to get the good stuff... these days there piratebay. |
Yeah man. Copy a: b: and xeroxing a manual was really tough. |
Hahah don't forget Kazaa and Emule, they were the most difficult 'sources' of them all! |
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| Posted: Sun, 14th Dec 2008 03:48 Post subject: |
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how come piracy effects mostly go to pc games? psp, ps1, ps2, xbox, xbox 360 you can pirate on'em, not sayin every single user does, but people still download games and play pirated copies of'em, i mean you can even play pirated copies on the wii!!!(i guess to the moment, sony actually has stopped piracy in its ps3 console).
so in the end, its just not the pc games that are being pirated, for all i know 360 games could be the blame for slow sales.
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crossmr
Posts: 2966
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Sun, 14th Dec 2008 04:04 Post subject: |
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because people using pc games are already on the PC. people playing consoles have to go to the trouble of modding the console and getting online to download their games. Its easier to pirate PC games (no burning), and you don't void any warranties by pirating a pc game (where consoles often involve hard mods)
intel ultra 7 265k, 64gb ram, 3070
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| Posted: Sun, 14th Dec 2008 04:05 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: | | I love anti/pro piracy debates, heh. They always get so heated .. but there's always enough GOOD points made to keep it interesting. |
I'm really not being biased when I have to say I have never heard a good anti piracy argument. Good games that manage to get peoples attention have always sold well. The only way a game can remain a great game and somehow fail in sales is if they didn't market it right and failed to grasp peoples attention.
Even when piracy is thwarted its clear that sales don't increase like in the case of that Splinter Cell game and the biggest threat to the anti piracy argument is actually Stardock who releases games with out DRM and still gets massive sales. If the anti piracy arguments were valid this would be impossible.
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| Posted: Sun, 14th Dec 2008 05:08 Post subject: |
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It doesn't matter how well a game sales, it doesn't justify piracy. It's not up to you to decide when a company has made enough money so it's okay if you steal from them.
There doesn't need to be an 'anti-piracy' argument, because piracy is essentially theft and is illegal. You can try to rationalize it all you want, but you will fail. Be a man and admit you like downloading games because its fun and easy and you can't afford to buy them all anyway. It's okay.
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| Posted: Sun, 14th Dec 2008 08:46 Post subject: |
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| rhagz wrote: | It doesn't matter how well a game sales, it doesn't justify piracy. It's not up to you to decide when a company has made enough money so it's okay if you steal from them.
There doesn't need to be an 'anti-piracy' argument, because piracy is essentially theft and is illegal. You can try to rationalize it all you want, but you will fail. Be a man and admit you like downloading games because its fun and easy and you can't afford to buy them all anyway. It's okay. |
My post had nothing to do with justifying piracy because of sales. My argument is piracy doesn't really affect the industry. For example Diablo 3 is most likely going to become one of the most sold games for the PC ever when its released piracy simply isn't going have a affect on its sales.
As for it being wrong because its "theft" or simply because its illegal is a very weak and flawed argument. If I lived during WW2 and I hid Jews in my home to protect their lives in a Nazi occupied area I would have been breaking the law. Would I be wrong to do so?
I don't download games because its fun and easy (infact I use to pirate on 56K more than 10 years ago and it would take a week to download a damn game on a FTP while tying up my only phone line I wouldn't call that easy). Here is where you really fuck your argument and receive the knock out punch. | Quote: | | you can't afford to buy them all anyway |
You are 100% right I can't afford every single game I wish to play and I certainly can't make the mistake of buying one I didn't enjoy as that would stop me from purchasing the ones that I do. However this goes to show that the gaming industry never got the money they wouldn't have ever gotten anyways so where is the theft? Sure if I went out and stole it from the shelves of a store then I would be costing someone profits and doing a act of theft but that isn't the case when it comes to piracy.
The logic that we are somehow stealing breaks down if you simply apply that logic to just about anything else in life. If I bought a 2 liter bottle of Coke and you asked to have a glass and I shared it with you are we committing a crime because you won't go and buy your own Coke as you received some of mine? That is the exact argument you are using.
I will NEVER consider any type of sharing to be wrong and I find it absolutely sickening that we live in a world that considers it not only wrong but a crime that can give more prison time than manslaughter.
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| Posted: Sun, 14th Dec 2008 15:15 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | because people using pc games are already on the PC. people playing consoles have to go to the trouble of modding the console and getting online to download their games. Its easier to pirate PC games (no burning), and you don't void any warranties by pirating a pc game (where consoles often involve hard mods) |
its easy to get a console moded most people atleast know a guy who knows a guy that mods them for peanuts.
most people atleast know a guy who knows a guy that sells the games
you only need to pirate a few games and you have already saved enough money for a console if the moding fucks yours up anyway
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24625
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Sun, 14th Dec 2008 15:55 Post subject: |
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It's really simple. People will come up with any ridiculous reason to defend the fact that they're too cheap and comfortable just downloading stuff for free without giving a crap about the consequences. Looking back over the years I can clearly see the decline when it comes to quality as well as quantity of PC games. Less effort is spent on fine tuning and making games good, and why should they waste that effort and money if the majority will only download a cracked ISO instead of buying the game?
"What difference does it make if I suddenly buy my games? Most other people won't pay in any case so why should I?"
Inventing reasons to clear their conscience doesn't absolve you from anything.
Here's the easy part: If you got any enjoyment out of it you should pay because whoever worked on that piece of entertainment didn't do it for free. If you don't pay you're a freeloader.
The arguments I've seen in this thread are all based on unconfirmed conjecture, and all point to the need for people to change reality so they don't have to worry about conscience or even common sense. Basically to feel good about themselves (as opposed for facing reality and realizing you're a cheap freeloader).
I've been around since the ZX Spectrum/C64 days, seen copy protections come and go, and with the advent of Internet seen piracy boom into ridiculous levels. Back in the C64 (and later Amiga) days I told myself that since I didn't have any money I wouldn't have paid for the games anyway, and thus there's no loss to anyone. It was a convenient half lie, especially when it explains the attitude that exist in freeloaders from all times.
When I grew up and started to study etc. I didn't really care. I never thought about it and wasn't bothered about it in any way.
When Internet came, piracy increased almost exponentially. You no longer had to copy tapes, floppies or cd's, you could just download it off the internet without leaving the comfy chair in front of your computer. With this came a whole slew of bullshit ideologies that people invented to make piracy legit (lol). That's the kind of bullshit that is turning the debate into a spectacle. No one seems to be able to have the decency of being honest with themselves or others.
I'll take myself as an example (brutally honest): I've begun buying more games in recent years since it supports the developers and the industry (albeit in a small way, publishers take the biggest piece) but I still download and play games without buying them. Why? Because I have to prioritize my economy. I have rent, bills, living costs, medical costs, pet food, car expenses etc. to think about. It's still nonsense, if I can't afford to buy a game I shouldn't play it. Yet it's there, it's so easy to just download, install and enjoy. There's absolutely no way around it: I enjoy the game, thus there's a value in it, yet I don't pay for it. I am a freeloader but as I said before I'm trying to change and I have. I've even begun buying old classics that I played years ago.
What the industry need to do is change peoples attitudes. They can slap any fort knox-class protection on their stuff but it won't change a thing. It will just become another excuse for pirates to continue doing what they do because it's convenient, and people love being convenient even if it means being dishonest about themselves and their reasons.
You pretty much have to ask yourself a simple question: do you think the people working for years (as a living) on a product that you get enjoyment out of are entitled to be paid for that work? If yes, then there's no excuse and you should just be honest about being cheap. If no, then you're basically nothing more than a thief and deserve any justice that may slap your hands now or in the future.
Piracy has become a habit, a cultural thing. It's ingrained into peoples minds as something normal, something that is legit since there's practically no risks involved. And since it can be done in the comfort of your own living room it doesn't even feel like stealing. That's the attitude that stands against game developers, and it's an overwhelmingly difficult one to beat.
The days when PC gaming was top of the crop is gone, soon PC exclusive games will be a memory and cross-platform ports will be the only thing we'll ever see, and even less effort will be put into ports to PC. Why? Because there's so little money in PC gaming these days that it's no longer affordable to expend resources and money on pure PC development. It's the crass reality they face, and it's a reality most of us here at nforce doesn't feel comfortable acknowledging since it would mean we'd have to take responsibility of our own actions and wake up from the "freeloader dream where nobody is hurt, where piracy isn't affecting anything".
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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| Posted: Sun, 14th Dec 2008 16:22 Post subject: |
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| NuclearShadow wrote: |
As for it being wrong because its "theft" or simply because its illegal is a very weak and flawed argument. If I lived during WW2 and I hid Jews in my home to protect their lives in a Nazi occupied area I would have been breaking the law. Would I be wrong to do so? |
Holy shit, did you really... ?
Talk about the most epic fail invocation of Godwin's Law.
Comparing piracy to the.. holocaust.
You should be ashamed.
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| Posted: Sun, 14th Dec 2008 16:24 Post subject: |
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| rhagz wrote: | | NuclearShadow wrote: |
As for it being wrong because its "theft" or simply because its illegal is a very weak and flawed argument. If I lived during WW2 and I hid Jews in my home to protect their lives in a Nazi occupied area I would have been breaking the law. Would I be wrong to do so? |
Holy shit, did you really... ?
Talk about the most epic fail invocation of Godwin's Law.
Comparing piracy to the.. holocaust.
You should be ashamed. |
I said the VERY same thing to my girlfriend this morning;
"Oh fuck.. well, there goes the thread. Talk about an epic Godwin"
"What do you mean?"
"That piracy thread I've been ranting in? Someone just bought the Nazi's into it..."
"Oops."
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| Posted: Sun, 14th Dec 2008 16:50 Post subject: |
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| rhagz wrote: | | NuclearShadow wrote: |
As for it being wrong because its "theft" or simply because its illegal is a very weak and flawed argument. If I lived during WW2 and I hid Jews in my home to protect their lives in a Nazi occupied area I would have been breaking the law. Would I be wrong to do so? |
Holy shit, did you really... ?
Talk about the most epic fail invocation of Godwin's Law.
Comparing piracy to the.. holocaust.
You should be ashamed. |
Not really the point is breaking the law isn't always a bad thing. I knew you were going to use a lame response like this instead of actually attempting to make point to refute what I said. Sure the holocaust is a extreme example of this but it sure the hell gets the message clear. Notice how he also conventionally ignores the rest of the post as well.
As for Frant I really doubt PC gaming would be much different even if piracy never existed at all. The consoles are simply a much more user friendly way of playing games so naturally those who don't care to fuss choose it over the PC. Sales would still be much higher averagely on consoles and the market would have shifted regardless.
| Quote: | | You pretty much have to ask yourself a simple question: do you think the people working for years (as a living) on a product that you get enjoyment out of are entitled to be paid for that work? If yes, then there's no excuse and you should just be honest about being cheap. If no, then you're basically nothing more than a thief and deserve any justice that may slap your hands now or in the future. |
To be honest I'm very picky about the games I play and I uninstall any ones that I don't enjoy. As for the ones I love I simply buy them it may take some time for me to but I always do. So who is losing money? As for the pirates who don't practice this they more than likely can't afford the games anyways and therefor no one is losing a single dime.
If piracy was having such a large effect here then lets be honest PC gaming would have already been dead. We would all have moved to consoles and just pirated on them next and this would cause a giant tidal wave of piracy on the consoles and the tidal wave would only grow because it would only spark the interests of others along the way to join in causing the downfall of the consoles. This is the scenario that would take place if piracy has the effect that anti piracy side claims. But it hasn't happened and its not even close to happening so where the hell is the side effect of piracy?
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WaldoJ
VIP Member
Posts: 32678
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| Posted: Sun, 14th Dec 2008 17:13 Post subject: |
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back then you had nes, snes, sega, n64 consoles that couldn't compete graphically w/ computers! Now you got consoles that can compete graphically w/ computers.  STFU all of you with beefy expensive machines. You don't take up the whole world. Consoles took over, load up solitaire on your pc (oh wait you can get it on your ipod now) PC GAMING IS DEAD!
and NuclearShadow, pc piracy to the holocaust. It was a good thing then keeping the prosecuted hidden away from the evil nazi empire. There's nothing good about stealing software other than it's free and YOU Don't have to pay for it. That's the only good thing and it only benefits you, "the thief". Your holocaust example benefited you, the hidden jews and slapped the nazi empire in the face. FFS COMPARING PC PIRACY TO THE FUCKING HOLOCAUST!  It's wrong on so many levels.
You can say how pc piracy is like stealing a loaf of bread when you cannot afford it. That makes more sense. But the holocaust. I so want to go on a serious rant about now getting banned and all. And you even defended it. Like arrrrgh! What the hell?
| Sin317 wrote: | | I win, you lose. Or Go fuck yourself. |
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| Posted: Sun, 14th Dec 2008 17:30 Post subject: |
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| NuclearShadow wrote: |
Sure the holocaust is a extreme example of this but it sure the hell gets the message clear. |
No, it doesn't. It's retarded. The only thing it makes clear is that you have nothing of value to add. Just stop trying.
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24625
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Sun, 14th Dec 2008 18:35 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Sure the holocaust is a extreme example of this but it sure the hell gets the message clear. |
The only message it got across was how inept and weak your argumentation is. I mean, you MUST know about Godwin's Law and what it symbolize? You killed off the thread as being the biggest loser possible (whoever bring up one of the worst events in recent history and use it to strengthen a weak argument instantly puts a spotlight on just how weak that argument is, and is deemed the loser and the discussion is over) and then you try to defend it!!!??
I agree with rhagz on this one completely regardless of the discussion itself, it's so damn retarded using the holocaust as leverage to strengthen ones weak and hollow arguments. Fail!
ps. besides, you're still making up excuses as you go along instead of being honest with yourself.. Fail x 2!!!
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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| Posted: Sun, 14th Dec 2008 20:30 Post subject: |
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well having worked for a number of developers that make multi-platform games across Xbox, PS and PC I can honestly tell you that the lead platoform is always the top console, whatever makes the most numbers it's that simple.
The exception of course is when you see PC only development, but this is quite rare now, as it's too risky.
You can't make software being conceited enought to believe that some one will buy it.
Ultimately it all come down to Karma. If you buy a game, then the developer will benefit, wages get paid, people carry on working, and the world goes round.
If you don't make money, you don't get paid, so that title never get's made.
Piracy or not, if you really get a lot of pleasure from something, then pay a little something towards it.
I totally buy the argument that most people download games and music because they just can. I was copying Vic 20 missile command on audio tape at 14, so your preaching to the converted here.
Just remember.... KARMA and you'll be happy 
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WaldoJ
VIP Member
Posts: 32678
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| Posted: Sun, 14th Dec 2008 20:55 Post subject: |
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Pirating pc games is like being part of the k k k. Companies don't respect you. Developers hate you. And people spit in your face when you screw up. 
| Sin317 wrote: | | I win, you lose. Or Go fuck yourself. |
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