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 Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009 01:52 Post subject: The human condition... |
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Gilles de Rais, a pious catholic and one of the worlds most prolific serial killers.
Number of victims: 80-200
Span of killings: 1435-1440
In Jean Benedetti’s biography of Gilles de Rais, he explains what happened to the children - both boys and girls:
The child was pampered and dressed in better clothes than it had ever known. The evening began with a large meal and heavy drinking, particularly hippocras, which acted as a stimulant. The child was taken to an upper room to which only Gilles (de Rais) and his immediate circle was admitted. The child would then be confronted with the true nature of its situation. The shock thus produced on the child was an initial source of pleasure for Gilles.
An accomplice in many of the crimes, Etienne Corrillaut, known as Poitou, testified that de Rais then raped the child as it was hanged from a hook by the neck. Before the victim died, Gilles took the child down, comforted it, repeated the rape and either killed the child himself or had it slain.
Poitou testified that the child victims were murdered “sometimes by decapitating them, sometimes by cutting their throats, sometimes by dismembering them, sometimes by breaking their necks with a stick, and that there was a weapon specifically for their execution, known as a braquemard.”
Gilles de Rais rarely left a child alive for more than one evening’s pleasure, Poitou claimed. Many times they were dealt mortal wounds before de Rais sodomized them. He would then take his pleasure as the child died. Occasionally, he would perform a sex act with a dead child.
In his own confession, Gilles testified that “when the children were dead he kissed them and those who had the most handsome limbs and heads he held up to admire them, and had their bodies cruelly cut open and took delight at the sight of their inner organs; and very often when the children were dying he sat on their stomachs and took pleasure in seeing them die and laughed…”
Bodies were cremated in the chamber of horrors. The fires burned slowly over time so as to minimize the smell, testified Henriet Griart, another co-conspirator. Poitou also claimed the ashes were then dumped in the cesspool or moat.
Doesn't this kind of thing make you realise the frailty of the human mind, and just how monstrous it can become given the right conditions.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
Last edited by AnimalMother on Mon, 2nd Feb 2009 02:34; edited 1 time in total
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73196
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009 01:59 Post subject: |
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Putting aside how horrible it was for the victims, I have always found it fascinating what could cause such traumas to the human brain to make such acts pleasureful... I always find myself fascinated by such people, characters, etc, don't know why. There is an obvious distinction between evil for the sake of evil and cases like these, where insanity is a given.
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| Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009 02:06 Post subject: Re: The human condition... |
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| AnimalMother wrote: | | and just how monstrous it can become given the wrong conditions. |
Fixed.
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| Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009 02:26 Post subject: |
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Wow never heard of him.
@AM: You might fix his name in the first sentence.
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Cohen
Posts: 7155
Location: Rapture
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| Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009 02:46 Post subject: |
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I find it very interesting too. Does that make me sick? No. Human nature is curiosity, human nature is shock hungry, human nature is evil, human nature is vicarious.
What he did was 'wrong' in the eyes of the 'sane' world. But is it right to condemn and label a man insane or monstrous if they are slaved in the mind by what their brain tells them is OK?
If any man had something wrong with him that made him only able to get erect at the sight of a gushing neck stump then eventually human nature would crack him and he would succumb to his need.
This guy indeed was norman bates x 999999999 but in reality, I saw some kids screwdrive a guys eyeballs out on camera a month ago, this shit still goes on and always will. We are, despite anything, animals with urges.
troll detected by SiN
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| Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009 10:26 Post subject: |
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Not insane? Maybe not. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different reactions. The guy was a sociopath, which is not insanity but just a total disregard for anything other than himself. A lack of empathy. In addition to that, he was probably also insane, they seem to go along eachother.
Is it right to condemn him for it? Ofcourse it is. Whatever the reason for his brain malfunction, society must judge people on their actions and intentions, not on whether their psychosomatic high order functions are functioning properly. Whether he thought it was morally wrong or not is besides the point, he was harming other members of society and society has to protect itself from that, ie. condemnation.
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| Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009 11:03 Post subject: |
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serial killers are the work of severe phyisical or psychological bullying and anxiety during childhood/teenage hood, basically they were hurt and bullied from most people they knew and then shut down any doors for any new friends or contacts and start believing everyone hates them and everyone is after them, so they start killing to relief incredible anger built up inside every now and then, just like you relief sexual tension with masturbation or sex, they relief massive anger with ritual killings.
I personally don't hate any serial killer, it's just the course of things.
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24625
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009 11:15 Post subject: |
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A shocking tale indeed.
| Quote: | | The child would then be confronted with the true nature of its situation. The shock thus produced on the child was an initial source of pleasure for Gilles. |
This really gave me the chills. The completely alien paradigm of someone experiencing pleasure by invoking extreme fear and anxiety and later torture and death in a child, it's so far out in the fringes of madness that it's difficult to feel anything but extreme contempt. Yet we're fascinated with these human freaks that are capable of such deeds.
On another note, a soldier doing his duty by dropping bombs on daycare centers etc., is he any different? If we're talking "judged by his actions" I mean. All the pain, horrors and extreme suffering in any war makes what these sociopaths do seem like a smack on the head in comparison.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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| Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009 11:21 Post subject: |
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Well, Gilles grandfather taught him that they were born into the elite and that laws were not made for people like them.
Fun facts;
Bodyguard for Joan of Arc
Hired magicians to conjure Satan, offering parts from small children.
Admitted to the crimes first after torture.
Burned.
And a 100 year something later came Erzebet Bathory, luring her batch of farmer kids.
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| Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009 14:51 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009 15:26 Post subject: |
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That's not evil. There is no evil. The term is invented by religion to label those that commit "sins" and are going to hell. It's defined as something absolute and unquestionable. In reality what for some people is evil others find good.
People are products of their surroundings. No one is born violent, greedy or anything. You become all this thanks to influence from your environment. If you see your tribesmen hunting boar when they are hungry, that's what you'll probably do too. If you have been exposed to violence while growing up, well, violence becomes normal for you. What some people call human nature is what they've been configured to think is normal or even necessary to survive.
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24625
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009 16:15 Post subject: |
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| DarkPassenger wrote: | That's not evil. There is no evil. The term is invented by religion to label those that commit "sins" and are going to hell. It's defined as something absolute and unquestionable. In reality what for some people is evil others find good.
People are products of their surroundings. No one is born violent, greedy or anything. You become all this thanks to influence from your environment. If you see your tribesmen hunting boar when they are hungry, that's what you'll probably do too. If you have been exposed to violence while growing up, well, violence becomes normal for you. What some people call human nature is what they've been configured to think is normal or even necessary to survive. |
You're taking relativity of behavior/experience beyond logical or reasonable limits to the extreme. There's an inherent morality in humans (as well as most higher level animals) that have nothing to do with religion or philosophy. It's in our own best interest to look out for each other and not cause pain in our peers. This can be split into several different groups, and can mutate due to tribal behavior (which is why we have wars where we hurt others while protecting your own, or at least you believe that is what you're doing). It's part of our existence, and some of it are instincts, some of it comes from having a consciousness etc..
When an individual lacks those parts, he becomes a danger to his own society by becoming a predator, much like a malign cancer cell. While there's no such thing as a black and white clear-cut definition of what's good and what's evil, we have pretty firm guide lines that can tell us when something is good for us and when something is bad for us. Call it what you want, good/evil/positive/negative/right/wrong, it doesn't matter. What does matter is that we instinctively and/or consciously know what is right and what is wrong, for instance what Gilles did to children in the 15th century.
| Quote: | | People are products of their surroundings. No one is born violent, greedy or anything. |
I suppose you subscribe to the school that says we are 100% products of our social environment and upbringing. I don't agree with that view, I'd say it's 50/50 between genetic predispositions and social upbringing/environment.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
Last edited by Frant on Mon, 2nd Feb 2009 16:20; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009 16:18 Post subject: |
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| DarkPassenger wrote: | That's not evil. There is no evil. The term is invented by religion to label those that commit "sins" and are going to hell. It's defined as something absolute and unquestionable. In reality what for some people is evil others find good.
People are products of their surroundings. No one is born violent, greedy or anything. You become all this thanks to influence from your environment. If you see your tribesmen hunting boar when they are hungry, that's what you'll probably do too. If you have been exposed to violence while growing up, well, violence becomes normal for you. What some people call human nature is what they've been configured to think is normal or even necessary to survive. |
That's not entirely true, almost all neurological conditions, including psychopathic behaviour, have a genetic component.
It's nice to oversimplify this kind of thing, but human nature actually has definable traits that have a high penetrance across the entire human race.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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| Posted: Mon, 2nd Feb 2009 17:12 Post subject: |
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| Frant wrote: |
I suppose you subscribe to the school that says we are 100% products of our social environment and upbringing. I don't agree with that view, I'd say it's 50/50 between genetic predispositions and social upbringing/environment. |
Well, definitely not 100%. But for the most part, yes, I think that environment is the most important factor in shaping the human behavior. More like 90/10.
| AnimalMother wrote: |
That's not entirely true, almost all neurological conditions, including psychopathic behaviour, have a genetic component. |
If you are talking about mental illnesses, then yes there is no arguing about that.
| AnimalMother wrote: |
It's nice to oversimplify this kind of thing, but human nature actually has definable traits that have a high penetrance across the entire human race. |
Of course. Humans, just like animals are born with the instincts of survival and reproduction. It's just that we can think unlike animals and have developed ways to manipulate others into making it easier for us to survive and reproduce. Life for people is basically the same everywhere on our planet: in order to survive you need food, water and housing; to get ahold of these you need money; to earn money you need to sell yourself and your skills to other people. This leads to certain traits, as you call them, like greed, selfishness etc.
Gilles de Rais sounds like a psychopath and I think we agreed about such mental conditions.
My main point was about the relativity of the concept of "evil".
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